How long is the average run-up?
I've been getting paid to fly for a little while now and on average we take about 5-10mins to cover all the systems. Mind you it's a very modern airplane and very well thought out.
So the other day, I hop into a multi-ifr trainer at a well established IFR training facility and I spend 30 minutes going through the checklist at $250/hour. To top that we skipped a bunch of stuff. So say add another 5-10 minutes.
I remember my training days, single and multi engine, and never remember anything remotely close to this.
$125 to run up an airplane? No wonder training costs so much.
Run-ups
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Right Seat Captain
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Cat Driver
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Generally we take around six minutes from brakes off to wheels off in the PBY and DC3 if there are no traffic delays.
And I am talking about training and operational as there should be no difference.
Cat
And I am talking about training and operational as there should be no difference.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Run-ups
It's much colder in Canada now-adays with global warming and all that, you know...Snowgoose wrote: I remember my training days, single and multi engine, and never remember anything remotely close to this.
I believe the current mantra is that you simply can't check something too many times.
For example, the typical FTU Cessna checklist will check the mixture at least 5 times before takeoff, and the carb heat 4 times.
Personally, I'm more concerned with adequate cylinder head temperature before takeoff, and avoiding fouling the bottom plugs, neither of which you will ever find on an FTU checklist, but I will pre-emptively admit to my eccentricity.
For example, the typical FTU Cessna checklist will check the mixture at least 5 times before takeoff, and the carb heat 4 times.
Personally, I'm more concerned with adequate cylinder head temperature before takeoff, and avoiding fouling the bottom plugs, neither of which you will ever find on an FTU checklist, but I will pre-emptively admit to my eccentricity.
There's no reason that a run-up in a light twin should take you $125 worth of time. Ya you can't check things enough, but once you get out of the training environment things are going to be done with efficiency in mind as well.
I've always wondered as well why schools don't run checklists as a "challenge and response" (on the multi-IFR training) - it'd save time and money (maybe there's my answer), and it would prepare the students better for jobs in 2 crew environments. They should be able to do them single-pilot, but why not save the bucks and the time for the student and introduce them to how things are done when both front seats are occupied. I used to do this with my students once I knew that they had the basics of where everything was in the aircraft (which we'd go over LOTS without the engines running before their first flight anyways)...I think they appreciated the savings.
I hate to say it, but your instructor is probably loving the long run ups as it's building up the oh-so-valuable multi-PIC time.
FYI in the King Air we're usually about 3 mins or so from engine start to the end of the line-up checks (assuming we're taxiing only a short distance of course...).
I've always wondered as well why schools don't run checklists as a "challenge and response" (on the multi-IFR training) - it'd save time and money (maybe there's my answer), and it would prepare the students better for jobs in 2 crew environments. They should be able to do them single-pilot, but why not save the bucks and the time for the student and introduce them to how things are done when both front seats are occupied. I used to do this with my students once I knew that they had the basics of where everything was in the aircraft (which we'd go over LOTS without the engines running before their first flight anyways)...I think they appreciated the savings.
I hate to say it, but your instructor is probably loving the long run ups as it's building up the oh-so-valuable multi-PIC time.
FYI in the King Air we're usually about 3 mins or so from engine start to the end of the line-up checks (assuming we're taxiing only a short distance of course...).
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Cat Driver
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" Got behind a TC Be90...had time for a couple of beers! "
Just imagine these guys doing that at O'Hare or London Heathrow.
Can any flight school training on light aircraft explain why all the heavy stuff leaves the gates and only stop if they are blocked by traffic on the taxiway waiting for take off sequence?
I fail to understand why it has to be made more complex than it really is, there are far to many repeat items and unnecessary items in most flying school check lists.
Just imagine these guys doing that at O'Hare or London Heathrow.
Can any flight school training on light aircraft explain why all the heavy stuff leaves the gates and only stop if they are blocked by traffic on the taxiway waiting for take off sequence?
I fail to understand why it has to be made more complex than it really is, there are far to many repeat items and unnecessary items in most flying school check lists.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
On the 550, we are airborne within 5 minutes after engine start if we don't have to taxi too far to the active runway. The actual checks take maybe 3 minutes, but then again we don't do runups 
Having said that, we do spend around 20 - 25 minutes in the cockpit before we start the engines, setting up everything and programming the GPS, setting our airspeed bugs etc.
Having said that, we do spend around 20 - 25 minutes in the cockpit before we start the engines, setting up everything and programming the GPS, setting our airspeed bugs etc.
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Right Seat Captain
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True, but these items have appeared out of experience. I know all to well how easy it is forCat Driver wrote: I fail to understand why it has to be made more complex than it really is, there are far to many repeat items and unnecessary items in most flying school check lists.
A) A student to miss a check on a checklist when they are excited about their solo.
B) I have yet to suffer from any kind of mechanical failure in the air yet. However I have found numerous things on the ground that would have been trouble in the air if I had not checked them. Just about everything on our checklist I have seenw ith my own eyes their worth. One must keep in mind the person that is flying the plane before you may have really screwed up.
Sorry, in ab initio training, there is a big difference. You take somebody off the street and you can teach them the checklist with the engines off all you want, but it'll take them significantly longer to go through the checklist that what I can do.And I am talking about training and operational as there should be no difference.
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Cat Driver
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Right Seat Captain
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Mags on because they have been accidentally knocked with knees while in flight. Master on is a good question. I don't usually check this on a pre-landing check since, if I can hear the passenger, myself or the radio, I consider it checked. However if I haven't heard anyone in a long time, nobody on board, and I stopped singing to myself, I'll check that I have electrical power...not necessarily the physical master switch.Cat Driver wrote:O.K. why do they check mags on and master switch on when downwind?
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Cat Driver
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Humour me RSC, how do you turn off a mag by bumping the key with your knee?
I have been flying these little bug smashers with key turn mags for over fifty years and have never seen or heard of this happening.
How often do you find a mag off caused by accidently hitting it in flight?
Cat
I have been flying these little bug smashers with key turn mags for over fifty years and have never seen or heard of this happening.
How often do you find a mag off caused by accidently hitting it in flight?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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I_Drive_Planes
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I had a great instructor for my PPL who tried to save me money where he could, we did 2 crew checklists about a third of the time (especially if we were in a hurry), makes you feel really important in a c-150!Pugster wrote: I've always wondered as well why schools don't run checklists as a "challenge and response" (on the multi-IFR training) - it'd save time and money (maybe there's my answer),
I found it also helped me to develop a more thorough understanding of the checklist because I now had to know the proper response to each of the challenges, rather than reading them off of the checklist.Planes
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Cat Driver
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Maybe it is more important for the pilot to be paying attention to situational awareness in the traffic pattern than having thier head in the cockpit reading and doing a check list that contains items that have little or no effect on a safe circuit and landing?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Right Seat Captain
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If you noticed in my post, I still verified there was electrical power, whcih I consider the equivalent of our Master On check.VSF wrote:stranger things have happened in a cockpit with a student. RSC isnt the Master check on the Before Landing checks on our checklists? Tisk tisk! haha
Last edited by Right Seat Captain on Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Right Seat Captain
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The prelanding check is done by memory and takes a whole of 10 seconds. And to answer yor previous question of how the mags can be switched in flight, try putting various types of people you do not know in the pilot seat who do not know how to fly, and see what happens. You start to find all sorts of weird problems occuring. Cat, I seem to remember you mentioning the issues you have about pilots who don't know how to fly? The people I have know even less about an airplaneCat Driver wrote:Maybe it is more important for the pilot to be paying attention to situational awareness in the traffic pattern than having thier head in the cockpit reading and doing a check list that contains items that have little or no effect on a safe circuit and landing?
Perhaps you have been fortunate enough to fly with people who do not fumble with things they are not supposed to in the cockpit.I will admit there may be some things that can be removed from the checklist that students use when you're speaking of licenced or experienced pilots.
Doc...Doc wrote:Got behind a TC Be90...had time for a couple of beers!
I do have to admit... the checklists are long. And we don't fly the machine a lot. So, it takes a while.
It is known in TC that industry has a chuckle at how long it takes us.
I have broad shoulders... laugh away.
-Guy
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Cat Driver
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R.S.C. :
First it is not my intent to demean your position as a flight instructor, far from it as I am merely pointing out that the check lists in flying school aircraft using simple training aircraft are far to long and do not add to safety in any signifigant way.
The last C150 I bought several years ago with the intent of using it in a flight school had a check list in it from a previous school that contained so many items to check and recheck that I was astounded.
Unless the schools want to prepare the student to enter a long haul trip in a heavy jet FMS, these check lists are overkill.
And yes RSC I have seen most every weird thing imaginable with students, remember I received my flight instructors rating in the 1950's using Cessna 140's and Fleet Canucks and have watched the check lists expand in relation to the years.
Even TC Guy is chained in his cockpit fatithfully grinding his way through the check lists so loved by TC and their offspring FTU's.
Anyhow there is not much you or I can do about these issues so try and concentrate on the "Kill" items...no fuel, fuel incorrect selection....trims way out of proper position....and controls locked. The rest can be coped with hopefully...
Cat
First it is not my intent to demean your position as a flight instructor, far from it as I am merely pointing out that the check lists in flying school aircraft using simple training aircraft are far to long and do not add to safety in any signifigant way.
The last C150 I bought several years ago with the intent of using it in a flight school had a check list in it from a previous school that contained so many items to check and recheck that I was astounded.
Unless the schools want to prepare the student to enter a long haul trip in a heavy jet FMS, these check lists are overkill.
And yes RSC I have seen most every weird thing imaginable with students, remember I received my flight instructors rating in the 1950's using Cessna 140's and Fleet Canucks and have watched the check lists expand in relation to the years.
Even TC Guy is chained in his cockpit fatithfully grinding his way through the check lists so loved by TC and their offspring FTU's.
Anyhow there is not much you or I can do about these issues so try and concentrate on the "Kill" items...no fuel, fuel incorrect selection....trims way out of proper position....and controls locked. The rest can be coped with hopefully...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat Driver I totally agree with you. Checklists are important but immediately after take off, during the climb or the descent for a landing it is important to be either looking outside in VFR conditions or paying attention to the instruments in IMC. During these phases of flight the guy beside you can read the list.Cat Driver wrote:Maybe it is more important for the pilot to be paying attention to situational awareness in the traffic pattern than having thier head in the cockpit reading and doing a check list that contains items that have little or no effect on a safe circuit and landing?
AFTER a thorough groundschool, it would still take me at least 30 minutes to do a complete runup and pretake-off check in a King Air 350. I may get away with 25 minutes in a King Air 100/200. Just the FMS takes 10 minutes. The reason for all this is you are lumping all the "first flight after maintenance", "first flight of the day" and severe weather checks and a take-off briefing all into one big lump. The electrical checks in a King Air 350 are a bit complex and if the candidate does not have a thorough understanding of the electrical system and does not understand the significance of a gen ties open as opposed to gen ties and bat ties open check,it could lead to serious consequences in flight. We predicate all of our one-engine inoperative take-off performance on the fact that the auto-feather will feather the prop on the inoperative engine. So lets take the time to teach the run-up properly so the pilot knows exactly what to do and what to look for. After training, a first flight of the day runup will take 5 minutes and subsequent runups are done while taxiing. Then there are those who do not do a runup at all. different strokes for different folks.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
