Open skies deal

[rejd]

How do you think this will affect Canadian aviation?

Breaking News from the Globe and Mail
By TERRY WEBER
Friday, November 11, 2005
Canada, U.S. expand ‘open skies' pact

Canada and the United States have struck an expanded “open skies” agreement that will liberalize air transport between the two nations and make it easier for carriers to gain access to each other's third-party markets, Transport Minister Jean Lapierre said Friday.

The pact, reached after talks earlier this week in Washington, builds on an existing deal, which was struck in 1995.

Friday's deal marks the first big step toward a more continental approach to the aviation industry since that time.

The new agreement gives Canadian passenger and cargo carriers greater access to the U.S. market and allow use of that market as a platform to provide transport to other countries.

It also provides for more flexibility in pricing for carriers from both Canada and the United States and makes it easier for Canadian airports to attract U.S. carriers, Transport Canada said.

“This further liberalization of the Canada-U.S. air transport relationship will allow airlines of both countries to better meet the needs of travellers and shippers,” Mr. Lapierre said in a statement.

“It is my hope that this agreement will encourage the development of new markets, new services, lower prices and greater competition.”

The deal's biggest change will see involve liberalizing Canadian air carrier access to United States' third country markets and vice versa.

The 1995 deal, while opening up services between the two countries also maintained constraints on each other's territory and third-party countries. Until the new deal was reached, Canadian airlines could fly passengers and cargo to the United States but couldn't pick up more business there before continuing on to a third-country destination.

The changes are scheduled to take effect on Sept. 1, 2006.

International Trade Minister Jim Peterson, meanwhile, called the agreement a significant advance in trade relations between the two countries.

“The flow of people, goods and services between Canada and the United States is crucial to how we go about our daily business,” Mr. Peterson said.

“This new flexibility which goes well beyond the 1995 agreement will improve how the NAFTA works and it will make North America more competitive.”

Carriers like Air Canada have in the past urged both countries to adopt even more liberal agreements, with an eye on an unrestricted single aviation market encompassing both Canada and the United States.

[. .]

“It is my hope that this agreement will encourage the development of new markets, new services, lower prices and greater competition.”
ncompassing both Canada and the United States.

Sweet just what the industry needed. More competition and lower prices!

[rejd]

Sweet just what the industry needed. More competition and lower prices![/quote]

Excatly what I was thinking. I don't see this as a good thing.

[marktheone]

I talked to Mr. Lapierre's assistant about it yesterday. He was in Montreal in meetings though I did leave a message for him to call me. His assistant was pretty helpful. I thought it sounded like Cabotage to me. It's not. For the 704, 703 and 702 operators there is really no appreciable change. For our airlines I think it might even be good. Here's why. Canadians can draw more effectively on the larger market of the US. The ticket will be in the amount of money that Canadian companies want to spend advertising in the US. I am usually against any change that TC makes to things because experience tells me it's usually bad but this might just work out for Canada.

[tenten]

Any steps made toward truly open skies will help the aviation industry in Canada. I think this announcement is great news. It opens up revenue streams for Canadian carriers.
Bring it on.

[therubberjungle]

Hmmmmm...

Lapierre met with industry over this issue. Air Canada wanted it (and more) while no-one else did, especially the cargo carriers.

Thanks for listening Lapierre. We will be sure to remember you, and your Liberal cohorts, come election day.

[Right Seat Captain]

The current deal is not a big issue for now, in my opinion. However it's a step in a very scary direction for the aviation industry in Canada.

[jetmech]

Sweet just what the industry needed. More competition and lower prices!

Excatly what I was thinking. I don't see this as a good thing.[/quote]

When is the Idiot public going to realize that Aircraft and all things associated with them, are expensive. Here you have Morons that will spend 30 + dollars for a ride in a $25'000 cab to Toronto from Pearson, then they squawk about spending $500.00 on $50'000'000 jet to Vancover. I don't understand.

[. .]

If they're going to allow pilots to be included under NAFTA as professionals to work across the border than this will be good for pilots. A mass exodus of qualified canadian guys will go south. If it's going to remain the same I just can't see how how this is the best way to go about things. The Americans haven't played fair with NAFTA, and I don't think this or any other supposedly bilateral agreement will ever change things.

[disco]

quote: If they're going to allow pilots to be included under NAFTA as professionals to work across the border than this will be good for pilots. A mass exodus of qualified canadian guys will go south.

Endless, I respectfully disagree. I hate to hijack this thread into a new direction but if NAFTA were to allow for pilots to cross bilaterally (it wouldnt be looked at in only one direction I am sure?) ...we would be in trouble here. The amount of furloughed pilots in the US is absolutely staggering. US Air for example has laid off half of their pilots....thats basically every First Officer at just one major airline. In Canada, we are in one of those rare hiring phases....our American colleagues are not so lucky.

[. .]

disco: To be honest I hadn't even thought about that.

even with all the layoffs down there, guys are going on jets with 1000hrs all time. Perhaps I have a poor sample group of freinds. Everyone that I've known who's gone to the usa has gotten 12500+ turboprop or better within their first 1000hrs. You definately can't say that about canada.

So perhaps the low/mid time guys would benefit and the higher time guys would take some major hits?

[turbo-prop]

But a lot of Americans wouldn't want to come to Canada to work, and would Canadian operators hire them.. I mean 703, 704 operators who fly into the short strips in the northern part of the provinces. The experience isn't the same kind of flying they do down there.

[EI-EIO]

coincidentally, US Sec of Trans Mineta also today signed a deal with the Irish minister for transport reducing the stupid Shannon stopover/direct DUB 1:1 requirement to zero by end 2008. Any whispers of a similar deal with Canada soon, since there is currently a very dumb bilateral in place and no direct service from October-April? Hopefully Lapierre and Cullen bumped into each other passing through the lobby

[disco]

Endless: So perhaps the low/mid time guys would benefit and the higher time guys would take some major hits?

I agree. I believe we have now narrowed it down now to the most likely scenario.

I could see the non-union, large jet operators grabbing direct entry Capts as often as they liked and the First Officer positions being a mixed bag from both countries.

Is this really being contemplated by NAFTA negotiators? Or is this speculation?

[. .]

i hope i didn't imply that i had heard this was actually being talked about with nafta. it was mearly throwing the idea out there to be discussed.

[Dockjock]

POST article earlier this week described it as "NAFTA for the skies". Oh yeah and NAFTA is working out great for Canada right now........
Right now I think this looks like a horrible idea for Canada, or at least for pilots and workers. Probably good for airline owners and executives as it will drive down costs. But I don't know very much about the details so can't really say one way or another. If the past is any indication though, our government can't exactly be relied upon to do anything beneficial for us.

[hanrahan]

i myself don't know enough about the situation to comment fairly, however the whole deal does make me nervous. i guess i should be thankful that things aren't going to be boring next year. god forbid that i should get comfortable in aviation.

[xsbank]

For a group of people who are constantly being forced to change, and whose very livelihood is daily rife with change, we sure are a paranoid lot.
But I agree with you, whatever the government chooses to do with trade will likely have a negative impact upon us as a nation and as a group. Why would any agreement with our giant neighbour not result in disappointment for us? The only reason we have been able to compete with them is our low dollar - buy anything Canadian and save 20%. Open up the borders and we will be able to get more American dollars, but the American low-cost operators have been thriving better and longer than ours and our productivity is way lower. We earn Canadian dollars, but have to buy airplane parts in US dollars.

Doesn't look good to me.

[Lo'n'slo]

Anyone who thinks this arrangement is a good idea ought to just emmigrate to the States cause thats what's gonna happen anyway.

NAFTA is ridiculus - a good idea - but the agreement itself is allowing the US to do what it had tried to do several times in the past and failed: conquer Canada.

If there was any doubt in my mind (which there wasn't anyway) then come election day I truly hope the Liberals will suffer dearly at the hands of Canadians.

The Conservatives aren't much better - that shifty-eyed Mulroney started this whole mess and today's shifty-eyed Harper stands ready to step into place.

Just vote for the NDP and do the people some good - at very least the NDP will stand up for what people want - not what a select few want.

Just my thoughts

Don't forget the gear