Turning down the RED team

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:32 pm

Anyone else besides me saying NO to the red team because of poor wages?

neophyte · Post by **neophyte** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:40 pm

We talking about BIG RED or LITTLE RED?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:02 pm

Anyone else besides me saying NO to the red team because of poor wages?

The starting wages aren't the best but we all had to start at some point. I started at the airline 10 years ago, when the starting salary was about 31K and today was payday. Normally, I wouldn't post a salary like over in the westjet forum but your post is begging for it.

As an Embraer Captain who cashed out his time bank and accepted some drafts, I "netted" in my pocket, just over 10 grand for the month of October. That was cash, not stock that I need to hold onto for a year. Granted, that doesn't happen every month but thats on the airlines smallest airplane!

Yeah saying no for the lack of money was pretty smart.

stevewilson · Post by **stevewilson** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:40 pm

JS:

Are your feelings the same for Jazz?

A lot of guys I know are struggling with the massive paycut/move to the most expensive city for the privilege of driving an RJ...most of them are currently making good salaries driving heavy t'props and King Airs, but of course putting up with the charter lifestyle.

Hard to say if it is worth it without the benefit of a crystal ball.

Steve

metal overcast · Post by **metal overcast** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:51 pm

Jazz is 8 years to make aroud 55K .
Real hard to swallow.

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:55 pm

Sorry JS but I am going to have to trump you..my take home this year is going to be over 100,000. I don't care if you were paid 31,000 10 years ago that is no excuse. Wouldn't it be great if we (non air canada pilots) all stood up together and said no to the job then watch them scramble until they decided to pay a decent wage. I know, dream the dream. This argument also goes for WJ, CJ and so on.

chief · Post by **chief** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:08 pm

metal overcast wrote:Jazz is 8 years to make aroud 55K .
Real hard to swallow.

Thats if you are not captain by then.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:26 pm

whipline wrote: Wouldn't it be great if we (non air canada pilots) all stood up together and said no to the job then watch them scramble until they decided to pay a decent wage. I know, dream the dream. This argument also goes for WJ, CJ and so on.

I could not agree more!

I didn't mean to try to trump you with my post, sounds like you are doing better than any of us. I just wanted to point out to some that yes it does suck at first but it gets alot better. I see so many looking at the immediate pay and perhaps not getting the big picture.

Every job I have taken has always been a step back to make 2 forward. AC is no exception.

stevewilson

The money is not a big at Jazz but it is a great job. Schedule and control of your life is worth alot. The worst thing would be the move to Toronto.

WhiteBeacon · Post by **WhiteBeacon** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:38 pm

First of all Whip and JS congrats on your monetary winfalls. Christmas is coming and I want a computer and x-box for christmas. Gimme Gimme!!!
This debate is actually a good one, it beats the hell out of I had an interview and nobody called today Boo Hoo! Tim Hortons is making a fortune on this topic as alot of us are getting together discussing the pay at AC and Jazz. We all know ball park what each other make by what we fly and who we work for. If you applied to these places then you must have some interest in working there. The money does suck starting out however so did the $15,000 I made flying my first PA-31 with a fresh load of student loans on my plate, but I was determined to make it. When I got to flight school I though I was going to see the world, make $250,000, and sleep with hot FA's forever. Boy was I wrong! You have to ask yourself can I do this job for another ten years? Face it if your a Capt on say a B-1900, Thats about as far as your gonna get, unless your lucky to go Corperate. To get a start at a good job we have to make sacrafices, there is no other way around it. As far as I'm concerned the road to heaven goes straight through hell.
As far as pilots getting together on the same page. Ha call me for that one. Pilots as a nature are cannibalistic, and we eat our young.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:06 pm

Whitebeacon

You are right in many ways. the biggest mistake I have seen pilots make, throughout my experience, is finally getting comfortable.

I don't know how many times I saw guys get comfortable to the point they could no longer afford to make a move. You can't put your life on hold but if you are B1900 capt and don't want to be a lifer, then don't buy that new car or get an expensive girlfriend. Travel lite until you get to where you want to be or at least a place you can live with.

A guy I used to work for, loved it when pilots bought a new car. He would give glowing references to the bank, knowing full well he would have this guy for awhile.

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:14 pm

Whipline,

By the way you worded your first post, it sounds like you have had (or have) a job offer from Air Canada and "Turned them down". Is this the case?

Or is it that you, like many of us make a decent salary and aren't too keen or simply will not take the pay cut.

There is a big difference. Air Canada has not called me, I can easily say I would never work there but as it stands now, they don't want me as an employee. If I was faced with a job offer however, things may change.
Jaques Strappe probably flogged a King Air in and out of some Hell Hole like you are now and took the initial hit in 1990 something only to be back where he was 10 years ago salary wise. Difference - pension, schedule, PAVEMENT, lifestyle, perdiems, medical and travel benefits and the layovers he does are not in Lake or Fort something.
Yeah, the pay sucks but do you want to be fueling out of a drum as the number 1 senior pilot at your company in a few years or, do you want to be maxing out your pension contributions, sitting in your back yard on one of your 18 days off that month.

If you have all of the things I mentioned above, you are one of a few and you are very lucky. In that case the Airlines are probably not for you. Me, I'm somewhere in between, I really enjoy the flying I do right now but in a couple of years I probably will wish I wore a trench coat instead of a Snowgoose to work.

giligan

A330 · Post by **A330** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:24 pm

It's just ashame that the pay group was established and the flat pay is for two years. I just couldn't see myself getting ahead at AC before the age of 40. I was hired five years ago and left after being furloghed a couple years ago. Wish they gave me a LOA for five years so I could come back with a decent seniority #. Toronto was hell for me and hated it. Bad timing I guess but I decided to move on and still think I made the right decision. The younger guys will be paying for the big pensions of those retiring in the next few years with those lower wages. 60k for a 4 year EMB FO is just not good enough.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:05 pm

A330

60k for a 4 year EMB FO is just not good enough.

I agree with you 100% but in 4 years it is very doubtful you will be an Emb F/O. The trick is not to be in that seat when the music stops but with anything in life, nothing comes without risk. In 10 years you could be a junior Airbus Captain making $170K

giligan

Jaques Strappe probably flogged a King Air in and out of some Hell Hole like you are now and took the initial hit in 1990 something only to be back where he was 10 years ago salary wise.

I sure wasn't making $135K+ flying a King Air! Is that what they pay now?

I was flying an MU2, should have been paid double! ........ What was that????

WhiteBeacon · Post by **WhiteBeacon** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:13 pm

JS your ex-boss is one sharp cookie. You summed it up best Travel light. Gilligan Pavement was classic. I am flying something with a white beacon made Capt the spring so I was used to $25000. Now $50000 is outta this world. To go back to 34,7K with Jazz hurts(If they ever call me), plus YYZ, plus reserve, plus jumpseats (on Captain's good graces) hurt. If I get on with Jazz I will take a pay cut, have to move to YYZ on that low salary, hardly fly, and lose my girlfreind because I have to move. You know what, I wouldn't even stop for gas if they called me tomorrow for YYZ. We all have to make sacrifaces if you want to get ahead. Remidies for it all = Bad money / smitten with new job don't care about pay, YYZ / I hope to fly an RJ (my baby), Hardly fly / Adult movies, girlfreind / FA's that smell amazing, Capt's that won't let you on / Karma. Boys it's all how you look at it. This industry is not for the weak hearted. If your not sure about AC get outta my way beacuse I am !!!!!

A330 · Post by **A330** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:36 pm

Very true JS, but unfortunately I just wouldn't see the higher wages for a long time and then to be at the bottom again on reserve.....

175 for a 320 captain? I've know the rates and that's off the charts. My uncle makes 195 as a 30 year 767 captain. I think the 320 should be about 150 now. Anway, lots of hiring and there should be some good movement in the next five years. Enjoy the winter !

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:58 am

A330

I just took an average hourly rate of $175 and multiplied by 80 then by 12.

That works out to 14K per month ( 168K/yr ) which is what I was making as a DC9 Captain prior to CCAA, so I think it is fairly accurate. So I stand corrected on my 175K figure.

Where did you land after the furlough? What are you doing now?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:18 am

From what I gather starting salaries and the first five years for that matter seem to be a step back at every airline in Canada. At WJ apparantly you will make captain within five years so maybe that's the place to be if you don't mind flying one type forever (at least for the forseeable future). My advise is to stay where you are if you're making good money. Otherwise you should look at foreign jobs that pay well. If we had the guzz, we would have a national association representing us all which would establish minimum salaries for each equipment. I'm sure Clive B. and RM would really like that

.Unfortunately the low cost phenomenon seems to be taking us in the opposite direction.

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am

Tony you took the words out of my mouth. This is OUR industry and I for one would love to take it back. When companies cut costs there isn't much they can do besides lower wages and I for one am sick of it. I didn't start flying the day I got the phone call from Jazz or AC I started along time before that so why on earth do they think they can pay me poverty wages.

For those of you out there that think its a simple..well i was making 60,00, now I will go back to 37,00 but in 5 years I will be back to 60,000 and eventually more, its not. Take a look at all the interest you are going to pay the banks with car loans and mortagages if you could actually get them. Instead of paying banks interest for the next 5 years that money could be going towards investments and making you money. In reality it will take way more then 5 years to recoup your losses. As Tony said if you want to make some real money get out of Canada.

I would like to say I have been lucky but you know what I can't. I think we as a profession all deserve to make an honest wage for honest work. It was a privelege say that I wouldn't be coming because of the low wage and I sincerely hope there are more out there who are as sick of this crap as I am.

A330 · Post by **A330** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:12 am

JS,

Math looks good to me just wondering about the 175/hr? Maybe before the new rates, but I think the new 320 rates for a 10 year Cap. is about 150/hr. Is it not?

In the ME working for the large carrier over there. Should be another huge Boeing order soon....

Cheers

PS. I agree there Tony, it's the industry norm to eat the loaf sandwich for about 5 years with any of the major players. However, I think for a younger guy, under 30 it would be a good time to get into AC. Lots of movement....

Kosiw · Post by **Kosiw** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:49 am

Hey Whipline, you got balls, I agree 100% with what you are saying

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:12 am

A330

Just so happened a buddy called this morning who is on the 320. I asked him what he was making and he confirmed about 14K a month.

Whip an Tony

I agree that this industry has taken a shit kicking as fa as wages and I hate the fact that many pilots are sluts who take food off the table of others. This is not isolated to Canada.

Emirates pay is crap, 4K a month as an F/O 10K as a Captain and you have to live on a compound in a country where you are tolerated. Gulf Air......even worse, Cathay.......? what pay scale are they down to now.... F? Where is this offshore oasis who pays top dollar as soon as you walk in?

Everything in life requires risk and strategy which requires a step back at times. The Doctor who is abused and paid slave wages for years as a resident while carrying student loans, makes less money per hour than the guy at the 7-11. Who is laughing 10 years later? Do you think a Lawyer who has to article for years at poverty wages is any different? How about an apprentice at the car dealer? Atheletes, Actors, Rock Bands the list is endless. All these people at some point decided that if they wanted to get to where they wanted to be, they would have make financial sacrafices.

I doubt you will find many airlines that are willing to pay you top pay scale right off the bat. There are too many pilots. While drinking at the trailer one night in Narita, a guy who chased the offshore dollar put it best. He said he would rather be flying in the right seat of an RJ, living at home in his own country than the left seat of a 747 working for some offshore airline in a culture he didn't understand.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:05 am

I think in aviation we're between a rock and hard place. By and large, doctors in Canada deal with provincial governments for their salaries and although they bitch, they still do quite well. Lawyers set their own prices much the same as consultants and again do quite well. As pilots we are trained professionals but we work for private enterprise which is market driven and therefore we are stuck dealing with Harvard-trained business types. Good luck. And, I've said it before, the low cost thing is forcing our salaries and working conditions down. So when it comes to negotiating salaries at AC, of course Milton is going to say "WJ, Zoom, Canjet etc" pilots are flying for so much less $$ why can't AC?

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:38 am

Low cost should have nothing to do with low pay. It should be low cost due to one aircraft type (training crews and training mechanics, ground equipment, spare parts, flying to cheaper airports, quick turns, etc..)

The doctor/lawyer thing is a GREAT example JS. When I had a fresh commercial licence I would certainly not expect top dollar. Once Doctors/lawyers have experience they will NEVER NEVER NEVER take a job with entry level pay. So why is it hard to reason that someone like myself is not willing to cut my pay by 3/4. Air Canada and every other airline in the great white north wants experience pilots and that should come at a price, a fair price. I would love to be an RP on the 340 and let the skipper explain to me why he/she has an extra decimal point on their pay cheque.

Airplanes don't fly without qualified crews and I would love to see airplanes parked because more people stood up and stood together and told the airlines to start paying a reasonable wage.

I will go and take my blue pill now!!

I should add too that a lot of my friends are flying in the gulf, are buying million dollar (Can $) homes with their BMW's, mercedes, lexus sitting in the driveways.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:18 pm

Whip

Once Doctors/lawyers have experience they will NEVER NEVER NEVER take a job with entry level pay.

Perhaps... but what about a lawyer who works for a firm and decides that in order to get ahead, he/she needs to start their own firm? They will often draw a minimal salary for the first while. Same with a Veterinarian who decides to start a practice after working for somone else. How about an Athelete who accepts a trade at half the salary because he figures the team he is going to will win the world series?

I would love to be an RP on the 340 and let the skipper explain to me why he/she has an extra decimal point on their pay cheque.

No disrespect but probably because he has been with the company 25 years and has alot more experience than you, not to mention responsibility.

I should add too that a lot of my friends are flying in the gulf, are buying million dollar (Can $) homes with their BMW's, mercedes, lexus sitting in the driveways.

Who are they flying for? When AC was circling the drain, I interviewed for Cathay and Gulf Air who were paying substandard wages. I didn't bother with the long winded process at Emirates because their pay was no better. In this instance, I have the same argument as you, the starting salary sucks! My point is, it is not limited to Canada. BTW, there are many at Air Canada who drive a porsche and have a million dollar home, or at least their ex-wives do anyway.

So where is this mystery airline that pays top dollar as soon as you walk through the door?

Tiny Voices · Post by **Tiny Voices** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:05 pm

Blue pill??Viagra???