Rooftop landing: Seeking advice and/or pilot

[advice seeker]

Hey all,

I'm a bit of a romantic and want to shake up my wedding by arranging for my fiance to arrive in a helicopter. The catch is that it will be a rooftop wedding in downtown Toronto and all the charter companies ive called have said they are not permitted to land on private buildings.

The city of Toronto told me a permit is not required if it's a private building. I'm waiting to hear back from Transport Canada about the regulations around rooftop landings.

I'm still talking with buildings as the only rooftop helipad I know of in Toronto is St Michaels Hospital. Other buildings may be open to it depending on their rooftop configuration but I will undoubtedly need a private helicopter with a creative pilot for hire!

I'm hoping somebody has experience or advice related to rooftop landings in Ontario and can share their expertise. Before the cynics come in saying it can't be done, I'm merely looking for any thread of hope that this is a possibility. The wedding doesnt depend on the helicopter, but I won't drop the idea until I've done my due diligence.

Cheers

[photofly]

The city of Toronto told me a permit is not required if it's a private building.

Aviation is federally regulated in Canada, and a municipal authority is not allowed to dictate where you can or cannot land. The federal government is allowed - and does dictate where you can or cannot land, in the Canadian Aviation Regulations.

Before the cynics come in saying it can't be done,

I'm not a cynic, but it can't be done legally.

602.13 (1) Except if otherwise permitted under this section, section 603.66 or Part VII, no person shall conduct a take-off, approach or landing in an aircraft within a built-up area of a city or town, unless that take-off, approach or landing is conducted at an airport, heliport or a military aerodrome.

None of the exceptions in that section apply, so without a Special Flight Operations Certificate (the exemption in 603.66) or some other permission from Part VII (commercial air services, and you've already checked with them) you can't use a private building, unless it's a certified Heliport, in Toronto.

There's pretty good reasons for that. We, the residents of Toronto don't want people landing helicopters on random buildings, for weddings, or for other reasons. Landing helicopters are incredibly disruptive, noisy, throw up a lot of downwash. We put up with it for life-saving operations by specialists, but that's about it. I know and understand your wedding is important to you, but in the wider picture, there are thousands of weddings a year in Toronto, and I'm sure a lot of brides would like to arrive by helicopter, but that's just not going to work in a built up area.

[Pratt X 3]

Not that it has a direct connection to your inquiry but you might want to check this out.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/11/b ... n.html?m=0

[photofly]

I'm a bit of a romantic

Also - I'm sorry to break it to you - but there's absolutely nothing romantic about helicopters. The noise and downwash is quite incompatible with your bride's mood, dress and hair, and she's likely to arrive looking like a wreck. Is she going to wear a headset over her just-done hair during the flight? or be deafened? Earplugs aren't sexy, either.

and want to shake up my wedding

That, you will do. But not in a good way.

[digits_]

If you really want to, you could try to register the building as an aerodrome (helidrome). You might get lucky and it could be done quickly, or you could be in for a world of hurt. You'll have to contact Transport Canada to get the process started and check if there is any chance to get it to work. Make sure you have the permission to do so from the building owner though. You might also want to check if the roof is strong enough to support a helicopter, and I imagine your home/building insurance would want to know as well.

[photofly]

If you really want to, you could try to register the building as an aerodrome (helidrome).

Just be aware that there's no such thing as a helidrome, and a registered aerodrome (registration is easy) doesn't meet the requirements of 602.13.

Takeoffs and landings in the built-up area of a town or city can only be done at an airport or heliport, and both an airport and heliport require certification, which is only granted after a vast amount of paperwork is generated following months or years of effort by the intended operator, and after much consultation with local government and other stakeholders. It's not something to be contemplated for a single flight.

The regulations surrounding heliports are in part III subpart 5 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations.

You can more-or-less do anything you want with an airplane or helicopter in a rural area (and a good thing too) but the regulation requiring an airport or heliport in built up areas of incorporated towns and cities is the mechanism put in place by the government to stop people doing things that put large swathes of the public at risk, like trying to land an airplane or helicopter in the middle of a city on an ad-hoc basis. Even for a wedding.

There is a mechanism for this kind of thing, which is the SFOC referred to in 602.13 ("Except if otherwise permitted under...section 603.66.")
Here are the details you need to provide:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 623d2_65_a

[digits_]

If you really want to, you could try to register the building as an aerodrome (helidrome).

Just be aware that there's no such thing as a helidrome, and a registered aerodrome (registration is easy) doesn't meet the requirements of 602.13.

Takeoffs and landings in the built-up area of a town or city can only be done at an airport or heliport, and both an airport and heliport require certification, which is only granted after a vast amount of paperwork is generated following months or years of effort by the intended operator, and after much consultation with local government and other stakeholders. It's not something to be contemplated for a single flight.

You are right, I missed that part.

There is a mechanism for this kind of thing, which is the SFOC referred to in 602.13 ("Except if otherwise permitted under...section 603.66.")
Here are the details you need to provide:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 623d2_65_a

That would probably be the way to go if the really wants to do it. Nice, I've never noticed that part before. Realistically, he would have to find a charter company willing to do it first, before he can apply, as the helicopter type and registration is necessary for the application. Kudos if he can do it in the 10 days prior to the event.

[photofly]

Since the charter company is the operator, the SFOC would have to be issued to that company, so the company would have to make the application.

[Bede]

The other issue as well is that most buildings are not engineered for the point loads associated with landing a helicopter. You may well end up breaking through the roof.

And as the other posters pointed, out it's outright illegal unless it's a certified heliport (such as on hospitals).

[blue thunder]

[/quote]


There is a mechanism for this kind of thing, which is the SFOC referred to in 602.13 ("Except if otherwise permitted under...section 603.66.")
Here are the details you need to provide:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 623d2_65_a
[/quote]

I've gotten a SFOC a couple times, but never for landing on a building. Once and arena parking lot, another in a ball diamond. I'm betting it may be a stretch for the top of a building, given the engineering research that might be involved. Great idea though, just a tough solution! Good luck!

[Heliian]

-Helicopter and pilot for 3hrs $15000
-regulatory paperwork and site visits, takes weeks, costs another $10000
-Closing of nearby streets and other crowd control $10000

So, If you have weeks and an endless supply of cash, it can be done.

However, the landing site still has to be strong enough to handle the loads from a helicopter and the associated forces.

This is reality in the city.

[AirFrame]

Okay, not a helicopter pilot here, so accept that this is a serious question from someone who admits to being uninformed... What about not landing, but just coming in for a 1' hover and the passengers jump out? Is that even a reasonable suggestion? After the passengers are off the helicopter leaves, and the party makes their own way out of the building?

Still need the SFOC, but may avoid the paperwork necessary to prove the building is strong enough.

[photofly]

702.19 For the purposes of paragraph 602.25(2)(b), the pilot-in-command of a helicopter may permit a person to enter or leave the helicopter in flight
(a) where
(i) the helicopter is operated at a low hover,
(ii) the person is able to enter directly from or alight directly onto the supporting surface,
(iii) the air operator is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate, and
(iv) the air operator complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards; or
(b) where
(i) the helicopter is operated to enable hoisting or rappelling, and
(ii) the air operator complies with section 702.21.

[AngelsSang]

Okay, not a helicopter pilot here, so accept that this is a serious question from someone who admits to being uninformed... What about not landing, but just coming in for a 1' hover and the passengers jump out? Is that even a reasonable suggestion? After the passengers are off the helicopter leaves, and the party makes their own way out of the building?

Still need the SFOC, but may avoid the paperwork necessary to prove the building is strong enough.

The "not a pilot" answers the question. Many have climbed in and out of my helicopters while i hovered over the roof. You could even have the wedding videographer capture it all, incase a douche bag questions it later. When you step back from a situation for 3 seconds, and look for a simple answer, it will usually come to you. Try complicating something simple, and you end up failing or creating a nightmare. It is no different than letting people out over water or powder snow, they just step off as the pilot hovers. Steep hillside no problem, skinny mountain top ridge, same thing. Grandparents in their 80s flown up as part of the wedding party, someone stronger just helps them in and out, done it. Open up ones mind, seek a solution, don't go rushing for the regs, to see a problem, then go oh no, the regs say it can't be done. You will miss 100% of the shots not taken.

[Schooner69A]

The Canadian Aviation Regulations (CAR 602.02.1) state:

602.01.1 No person shall operate an aircraft in such a reckless or negligent manner as to endanger or be likely to endanger the life or property of any person.

Note that there is no talk about landing, hovering, low flying, or 'just passing by'.

Simply a "don't be causing a ruckus"

Now, if the owner/operator of the helicopter can assure TC that such will not be the case in this instance, they may see fit to issue an SFOC.

However, if you can find an operator who is willing to do it - with or without the SFOC - go for it. If the operator is charged, you will just be out the cost of the helicopter; but, he/she may see a licence suspension, monetary penalty, and/or thousands of dollars in fees should he/she decide to fight the charge.

I know two private individuals (and for whom I testified as part of their defence) who were charged under CAR 602.01 and disputed the charges.

Outcome: one win and one loss.

In either case, thousands of dollars were spent by both trying to overturn the charges...

[AirFrame]

You will miss 100% of the shots not taken.

You'll miss them coming in two years late, too. Holy old threads, batman!

[AngelsSang]

You will miss 100% of the shots not taken.

You'll miss them coming in two years late, too. Holy old threads, batman!

This helicopter section of the forum is on life support, it is so close to being completely dead. Getting some discussion going on in here can only help, old thread or not. My main reason for joining the forum was to ask a question, but I just 5 minutes ago posted it in the General section, because this helicopter area has so little traffic, maybe 3 people would see it here.

[photofly]

Doesn't everyone use the "Active Topics" link? Shows new posts in all threads, in date order, regardless of which forum they're posted in. If nobody is answering posts in the rotary forum, it's probably because there aren't many rotary pilots around to answer them.

Here:

search.php?search_id=active_topics

[AirFrame]

Doesn't everyone use the "Active Topics" link? Shows new posts in all threads, in date order, regardless of which forum they're posted in. If nobody is answering posts in the rotary forum, it's probably because there aren't many rotary pilots around to answer them.

search.php?search_id=active_topics

Personally I use the "New Posts" link to enter the site. It shows a list of threads that have new posts in them, in date order. I wonder how it differs from the "active topics" link?

search.php?search_id=newposts

[The Mole]

I'll be the first to say, Yes you could do this. With a pile of butts. The companies all turned you down because they would be just stealing your money and wasting their own time. Im actually surprised they didn't try and 5k from you to try though. Its been a slow year. Transport canada would probably never issue the permit to do it. Unless you're friends with Trudeau. Usually for this kind stuff, like flying an AC unit, there isn't really another way or filming a movie. SO it's more in the public interest and even then it's a royal pain. And odds are the building has no suitable landing area anyway. SO yes you could always hire someone to fill out the paper work and try.....but 99.9% you wont get the approval.