Straight In Approach IFR in VMC

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:01 pm

I was having a discussion with my captain yesterday and was wondering if any of you have any input.

Scenario:
Weather is screaming VMC we are operating IFR into an uncontrolled airport with a published straightin approach. If we are cleared out of controlled airspace to said airport and it is VMC can we fly a striaght in because we are IFR and there is an approach or do we have to comply with circut entry procedures?

I am talking about the "by the book" way of flying this scenario.

Thanks

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:23 pm

At an uncontrolled aerodrome with a ground station in operation (FSS/CARS/Unicom) you can join the circuit from any direction except right base as long as you do not conflict with any traffic already established in the circuit.

Without a ground station in operation, I dunno.

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:25 pm

the eample i was refering to had no ground station.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:23 pm

About 20 years ago there was an overzealous TC inspector who tried to violate a Nordair 737 in Dryden for doing straight-ins during VFR weather.

You can follow the published IFR straight-in approach provided you haven't cancelled IFR.

You must respect the VFR traffic and avoid conflictions. It has been awhile since I flew in uncontrolled airspace, but we would just announce our position and intentions and go straight-in. If there was any VFR traffic, they were always quite accommodating. Never had any problems.

No more BS · Post by **No more BS** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:01 pm

Saigon is right.

Filling an IFR flight plan = IFR rules even in VMC hence the contact or visual approach.

having said that, If the published approach permits straight in (ie: RNAV approach or has a "no PT" or "IF" fix), then straight-in is legal just as long as you don't conflict with the VFR guys.

On the other hand, as soon as you "cancel IFR" (not to be confused with "Closing the flight plan" term as so many people do, including FSS), you are to abide by VFR rules.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:03 pm

There are no written rules on how to enter a circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome that is not an MF. However if a conflict arises in the circuit from you not entering the circuit on the downwind from overhead, you will find yourself in trouble legally. But this is the case at an aerodrome with no instrument approach. It is my understanding that if there is a published instrument approach, you may enter straight in on final on the approach, if you are doing the approach.

The issue with no legal procedures for entering the circuit at an uncontrolled, non-MF aerodrome was brought up at the aerodrome I work at several times over the past few years. It became a gray area because in the AIP, it stated that at such an aerodrome, the only two places that the circuit can be entered is from overhead the field or straight in downwind. However, the CARs do not back this up, so it becomes very difficult to enforce. Straight in finals or other wonky circuit joining procedures have caused many near misses in our busy circuit. When there is a close call, we forward the details to transport, and it something does get done about it, usually a talking to, but in the case of a bad attitude on the pilot's part, a fine.

I know from experience, that if it is VMC, and there is traffic in the circuit, it is far safer to join the circuit from overhead, or if you can ensure no conflict, straight in on the downwind. This is because on the downwind, you can find other traffic relatively easily. Everyone is in the same general location, at the same altitude. Bases and finals can be done at various distances from the field, and at various altitudes, making traffic spotting more difficult.

But if you want by the book, meaning the CARs, you can join the circuit any way you want. If you want by the book, from the AIP, or now the AIM, then you should join from overhead or straight in downwind. If you are on the approach, I think it is your call. Make a judgement based on safety.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:14 pm

Right Seat Captain wrote:There are no written rules on how to enter a circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome that is not an MF.

You on smack dude?????

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:30 pm

Dust Devil wrote:
Right Seat Captain wrote:There are no written rules on how to enter a circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome that is not an MF.
You on smack dude?????

Feel free to check, and let me know when you find something in the CARs.

Shady McSly · Post by **Shady McSly** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:42 pm

doesn't the cap gen say you have to have received certain info before you can do a straight-in approach and landing?
...like CARS advisory or prior phone call, etc.??

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:32 pm

Shady McSly wrote:doesn't the cap gen say you have to have received certain info before you can do a straight-in approach and landing?
...like CARS advisory or prior phone call, etc.??

Absolutely, a straight in is verboten unless you can determine in advance runway conditions; ie wind etc etc.

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:41 pm

good thing that my eyes work on short final. lol

MRO · Post by **MRO** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:42 pm

There is nothing in the CARs about it, but just read th AIP. RAC 4.5.2. its page 210 in the new AIM and it just lumps all uncontrolled airports in the same group. MF or not.

Right Seat Captain you really are on smack dude

chief · Post by **chief** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:17 am

Nothing in the cars? AIP or whatever it is called now is not a "legal" document.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:22 am

Dust Devil wrote:
Right Seat Captain wrote:There are no written rules on how to enter a circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome that is not an MF.
You on smack dude?????

No, he's probably correct. I have a memo at work from a higher up in TC that says the AIP/AIM procedures are a "recommendation only", it was distributed to several FSS sites. Several of the pilots flying in here (YTH) have seen it. If you're not joining in the manner described in the AIP, just make damn sure you accomodate those who are. The jist of the memo was that if IFR aircraft can join in whatever manner they wish when on a contact of visual approach, why should VFR aircraft not be allowed, so long as they're not causing a problem for others.

Yes, I realize that we're talking about an aerodrome outside of an MF, not one served by an FSS, but I don't see how one part of the AIP/AIM is legally binding, where another is not, provided CARs says nothing about either case.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:47 am

I realize that it's surprising to most people that there are no rules on how to enter a circuit at an uncontrolled, non-MF aerodrome, but I can guarantee you, it is true. As I said, I've talked a few times to TC enformcement with this issue, since some very odd circuit joining procedures are used by some that visit our airport. Yes, the AIM recommends how to join the circuit properly, but the AIM is not a legal document. You cannot charge someone citing what is written in the AIM. Before you argue with me, do check the CARs yourself. I'll even point you in the right direction: 602.96 - Operations at or in the vicinity of an aerdrome, General.

But again, if there is a conflict when you join the circuit, then there's this little one, 602.96(2)(a) or 602.96(3)(a) or (b):

602.96 (2) Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that

(a) there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle

602.96 (3) (3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall

(a) observe aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding a collision;

(b) conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation

Before anyone else says I am on smack, you better have some reference in the CARs showing how to join a circuit at an uncontrolled, non-MF aerodrome, otherwise you're the one on smack for continuing to believe what isn't true.

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:04 am

I'm with the smack free right seater.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:56 am

RSC is 100% correct:

1) you cannot be charged with contravening the AIP/AIM/whatever it's called this week. You can only be charged with contravening the CARs.

2) unless the CARs specifically prohibit something, you are permitted to do it, CAR 602.01 notwithstanding.

3) No CAR is violated by joining a straight-in final, or by joining straight-in to base. If you know of a CAR that says you cannot, speak up. Hint: there ain't one.

4) CAR 602.96(3)(b) says:

conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;

which pretty obviously means that you have to land the same direction on the runway as the VFR traffic. EG Runway 09/27. VFR traffic is using 27. You're doing the NDB 09. You can't land straight-in because of CAR 602.96(3)(b)

5) CAR 602.96(3)(c) says:

make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement

so you obviously can't make a right base or downwind, despite the fact that gliders and helicopters do it every day. So, if you're approaching from the right, DON'T call a right base, call joining a straight-in final. Remember that a circuit has no defined dimensions.

It's hard to avoid concluding sometimes that the level of knowledge of the regulations by pilots in Canada is spectacularly poor.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:06 am

Hedley wrote:
5) CAR 602.96(3)(c) says:
make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement
so you obviously can't make a right base or downwind, despite the fact that gliders and helicopters do it every day. So, if you're approaching from the right, DON'T call a right base, call joining a straight-in final. Remember that a circuit has no defined dimensions.

It's hard to avoid concluding sometimes that the level of knowledge of the regulations by pilots in Canada is spectacularly poor.

My understanding of it, based on the memo we got from transport, is that this only applies once you've joined the circuit. Prior to that, you're avoiding the circuit, since the right base isn't part of it. So, traffic permitting, you can join whereever you want. But if you do a T/G, you have to conform to the published circuit.

I can't speak for everyone who works in an FSS, but I'd much rather have you call right base (since it's permitted), than play word games about how you're maneuvering for the straight in.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:29 am

I can't speak for everyone who works in an FSS, but I'd much rather have you call right base (since it's permitted), than play word games about how you're maneuvering for the straight in.

We have discussed this before. Apparently, Transport has come down hard on Nav Canada about the "evil right base", and has instructed NavCan to report to Enforcement all right base calls for left circuits, and vice versa.

And from our previous discussion with the FSS people here, they are apparently only too happy to co-operate with Transport to try to revoke your pilot's licence. I can search some posts if you want.

So, Transport and FSS are in hearty agreement that pilots must play word games. They think that CAR 602.96(3)(c) doesn't allow right base calls at an ATF or MF, just straight-in finals

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:33 am

Hedley wrote: We have discussed this before. Apparently, Transport has come down hard on Nav Canada about the "evil right base", and has instructed NavCan to report to Enforcement all right base calls for left circuits, and vice versa.

Not recently they haven't.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:05 am

Just call "base" and omit left or right...

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:14 am

It's easy to be helpful and legal, however unlikely that may appear in this situation.

Back to the example of runway 27. Left traffic is south of the runway. You're approaching from the northeast. So, instead of calling right base, just call "4 miles northeast, will join straight-in final 27".

Transport and FSS can't revoke your licence, and other pilots know what's going on. QED.

MRO · Post by **MRO** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:00 pm

I had no idea the AIM was recomedation only I thought it was written in stone. That really changes my thinking on a number of things. But that means you can join at any point all willy nilly as long as you dont conlict.

Sorry Right Seat Captain I guess Im on smack

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:04 pm

When reading these rules and regulations from TC you must look for these key words.

" Should " and " Shall " therein will lie the answer to a lot of your worries.

Cat

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:15 pm

Right Seat Captain wrote:
Before anyone else says I am on smack, you better have some reference in the CARs showing how to join a circuit at an uncontrolled, non-MF aerodrome, otherwise you're the one on smack for continuing to believe what isn't true.

I'm still wondering if your on smack? it's a valid question unrelated to aviation. As far as the whole joining a circuit thing it does appear you are right. I'm still suspicious that there isn't something buried in the CARs somewhere I just haven't had a chance to go poking around in there.