Classic Dash replacement??

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KenoraPilot
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:36 pm

It will be interesting as maybe this is why the company approached Jazz ALPA in Nov to start talks about "fleet renewal and medium/long term planning". I assumed it had to do with GGN 1900's and the 301s not being able to be extended. I can only imagine keeping the 311's going for as long as possible on the small super necessary dash routes and most likely more Q's? Reduce frequency and up the seat count with the Qs. We will see......only time will tell but the Jan equipment bid coming up will be extremely telling.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:09 pm

The Dash 8-100/300 needs to be replaced ASAP. I didn't like it as a pilot and I like it even less as a paying passenger. Why you may ask:

1. Crap bin space, where I can't fit anything more than a coat.
2. Sky Check, where they break or dirty my carry on bag (not to mention having to take my laptop, etc on the plane with me and wrap it around in my coat)
3. Poor leg room
4. Loud
5. Vibrates
6. Bad temp control (too cold / too hot)

The Q400 is miles ahead of this abomination named the "Classic". Air Canada needs to rid itself of such old aircraft right away. If an ex Dash pilot hates is so much, how do you think passengers feel about it? I'm actually shocked that Canada's "legacy carrier" even allows such junks to have their name on it. If I had the choice between Encore or Porter, I'd choose them in a heartbeat over Jazz, simply because of the "Classic Crap 8".

That's how I really feel about it.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:40 pm

In an environment where the limiting factor is pilot availability, a low gauge - high frequency strategy is clearly not sustainable. Pilot work is both denominated and limited by hours not ASM’s.

AC has already abandoned some Express B1900 routes. Others have been upgraded to Dash 8’s. It is becoming obvious that 19/37/50 seat aircraft are no longer part of a viable long term commercial plan.

All Express route/equipment/schedule decisions are made by AC. Perhaps in a perfect world AC would like to continue to use the Dash 8’s. But a confluence of factors are seemingly removing that option from the table.

I would look for some indication of the future of the 50 seat jets as well.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:23 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:09 pm
The Dash 8-100/300 needs to be replaced ASAP. I didn't like it as a pilot and I like it even less as a paying passenger. Why you may ask:

1. Crap bin space, where I can't fit anything more than a coat.
2. Sky Check, where they break or dirty my carry on bag (not to mention having to take my laptop, etc on the plane with me and wrap it around in my coat)
3. Poor leg room
4. Loud
5. Vibrates
6. Bad temp control (too cold / too hot)

The Q400 is miles ahead of this abomination named the "Classic". Air Canada needs to rid itself of such old aircraft right away. If an ex Dash pilot hates is so much, how do you think passengers feel about it? I'm actually shocked that Canada's "legacy carrier" even allows such junks to have their name on it. If I had the choice between Encore or Porter, I'd choose them in a heartbeat over Jazz, simply because of the "Classic Crap 8".

That's how I really feel about it.
Thank goodness you quit Jazz! Wouldn’t want to subject you to any more pain and suffering. My god the Classic Dash 8 has given you some serious PTSD. I hope that one day you will recover from the pain inflicted by Jazz and the DH8. God speed and hope to see you one day recovered from the “classic crap 8 experience”
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:25 pm

As to the CRJ200, they are all slated to be retired by 2025 I believe as well. Jazz for sure one day will be a Q & RJ operator. The Classic at the moment is too lucrative for AC & Jazz to want to get rid of. Cheap on fuel & all paid off in Jazz books. Plus the routes the DH8 serves usually is the highest cost seats to buy as a passenger.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:25 pm

KenoraPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:23 pm
Thank goodness you quit Jazz! Wouldn’t want to subject you to any more pain and suffering. My god the Classic Dash 8 has given you some serious PTSD. I hope that one day you will recover from the pain inflicted by Jazz and the DH8. God speed and hope to see you one day recovered from the “classic crap 8 experience”


If you think a(n) (first world) airline, such as Air Canada, "VOTED #1 IN NORTH AMERICA... blah blah..." should still be flying 30+ year old airplanes that have more oil on them than paint, then you need to travel more "friend". Never mind what it did to me.

I didn't like that plane. Plain and simple. It's pathetic that AC customers / Star Alliance customers are subjected to it. I was honestly embarrassed to fly it. I felt like I was working for Buffalo Airways, but with a hat. The only thing missing was me on the wing of the -100, parked at Gate 101, with a mop in hand and a bucket of glycol, "gettin'er done" before my turn to Sudbury.
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Last edited by HansDietrich on Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:26 pm

KenoraPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:25 pm
...Plus the routes the DH8 serves usually is the highest cost seats to buy as a passenger...
Until Porter / Encore step in...
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:41 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:25 pm
KenoraPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:23 pm
Thank goodness you quit Jazz! Wouldn’t want to subject you to any more pain and suffering. My god the Classic Dash 8 has given you some serious PTSD. I hope that one day you will recover from the pain inflicted by Jazz and the DH8. God speed and hope to see you one day recovered from the “classic crap 8 experience”


If you think a(n) (first world) airline, such as Air Canada, "VOTED #1 IN NORTH AMERICA... blah blah..." should still be flying 30+ year old airplanes that have more oil on them than paint, then you need to travel more "friend". Never mind what it did to me.

I didn't like that plane. Plain and simple. It's pathetic that AC customers / Star Alliance customers are subjected to it. I was honestly embarrassed to fly it. I felt like I was working for Buffalo Airways, but with a hat. The only thing missing was me on the wing of the -100, parked at Gate 101, with a mop in hand and a bucket of glycol, "gettin'er done" before my turn to Sudbury".
What are you flying now?
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by fish4life » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:44 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:26 pm
KenoraPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:25 pm
...Plus the routes the DH8 serves usually is the highest cost seats to buy as a passenger...
Until Porter / Encore step in...
How did that work in YSB
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by ant_321 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:50 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:09 pm
The Dash 8-100/300 needs to be replaced ASAP. I didn't like it as a pilot and I like it even less as a paying passenger. Why you may ask:

1. Crap bin space, where I can't fit anything more than a coat.
2. Sky Check, where they break or dirty my carry on bag (not to mention having to take my laptop, etc on the plane with me and wrap it around in my coat)
3. Poor leg room
4. Loud
5. Vibrates
6. Bad temp control (too cold / too hot)

The Q400 is miles ahead of this abomination named the "Classic". Air Canada needs to rid itself of such old aircraft right away. If an ex Dash pilot hates is so much, how do you think passengers feel about it? I'm actually shocked that Canada's "legacy carrier" even allows such junks to have their name on it. If I had the choice between Encore or Porter, I'd choose them in a heartbeat over Jazz, simply because of the "Classic Crap 8".

That's how I really feel about it.
You’re the only person I’ve heard of who flew the dash and hated it. Most guys love it. I’m assuming the dash isn’t shiny enough or big enough for your ego.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:55 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:50 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:09 pm
The Dash 8-100/300 needs to be replaced ASAP. I didn't like it as a pilot and I like it even less as a paying passenger. Why you may ask:

1. Crap bin space, where I can't fit anything more than a coat.
2. Sky Check, where they break or dirty my carry on bag (not to mention having to take my laptop, etc on the plane with me and wrap it around in my coat)
3. Poor leg room
4. Loud
5. Vibrates
6. Bad temp control (too cold / too hot)

The Q400 is miles ahead of this abomination named the "Classic". Air Canada needs to rid itself of such old aircraft right away. If an ex Dash pilot hates is so much, how do you think passengers feel about it? I'm actually shocked that Canada's "legacy carrier" even allows such junks to have their name on it. If I had the choice between Encore or Porter, I'd choose them in a heartbeat over Jazz, simply because of the "Classic Crap 8".

That's how I really feel about it.
You’re the only person I’ve heard of who flew the dash and hated it. Most guys love it. I’m assuming the dash isn’t shiny enough or big enough for your ego.
It's not about my ego. It's an old plane. It's a plane that should've been retired a long time ago. The Q400 is a perfectly adequate aircraft. I would've loved to fly the Q400. Unfortunately Jazz freezes you on type for 4 years and I couldn't get off it, so I left... (that and other reasons... such as poor pay, etc. but that's a topic I've beaten to death here)
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:26 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:50 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:09 pm
The Dash 8-100/300 needs to be replaced ASAP. I didn't like it as a pilot and I like it even less as a paying passenger. Why you may ask:

1. Crap bin space, where I can't fit anything more than a coat.
2. Sky Check, where they break or dirty my carry on bag (not to mention having to take my laptop, etc on the plane with me and wrap it around in my coat)
3. Poor leg room
4. Loud
5. Vibrates
6. Bad temp control (too cold / too hot)

The Q400 is miles ahead of this abomination named the "Classic". Air Canada needs to rid itself of such old aircraft right away. If an ex Dash pilot hates is so much, how do you think passengers feel about it? I'm actually shocked that Canada's "legacy carrier" even allows such junks to have their name on it. If I had the choice between Encore or Porter, I'd choose them in a heartbeat over Jazz, simply because of the "Classic Crap 8".

That's how I really feel about it.
You’re the only person I’ve heard of who flew the dash and hated it. Most guys love it. I’m assuming the dash isn’t shiny enough or big enough for your ego.
:prayer: :rolleyes:
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:27 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:55 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:50 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:09 pm
The Dash 8-100/300 needs to be replaced ASAP. I didn't like it as a pilot and I like it even less as a paying passenger. Why you may ask:

1. Crap bin space, where I can't fit anything more than a coat.
2. Sky Check, where they break or dirty my carry on bag (not to mention having to take my laptop, etc on the plane with me and wrap it around in my coat)
3. Poor leg room
4. Loud
5. Vibrates
6. Bad temp control (too cold / too hot)

The Q400 is miles ahead of this abomination named the "Classic". Air Canada needs to rid itself of such old aircraft right away. If an ex Dash pilot hates is so much, how do you think passengers feel about it? I'm actually shocked that Canada's "legacy carrier" even allows such junks to have their name on it. If I had the choice between Encore or Porter, I'd choose them in a heartbeat over Jazz, simply because of the "Classic Crap 8".

That's how I really feel about it.
You’re the only person I’ve heard of who flew the dash and hated it. Most guys love it. I’m assuming the dash isn’t shiny enough or big enough for your ego.
It's not about my ego. It's an old plane. It's a plane that should've been retired a long time ago. The Q400 is a perfectly adequate aircraft. I would've loved to fly the Q400. Unfortunately Jazz freezes you on type for 4 years and I couldn't get off it, so I left... (that and other reasons... such as poor pay, etc. but that's a topic I've beaten to death here)
what are you flying these days? You bash the 8 but what are you currently enjoying now?
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:39 pm

KenoraPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:27 pm
what are you flying these days? You bash the 8 but what are you currently enjoying now?
I'm flying corporate. It's not perfect, but I enjoy it a lot more than Jazz. The Citation I fly is much nicer, I have more time off to be with my wife and kids and I go to much nicer destinations. I'm much happier than I was at Jazz. I did enjoy the "anonymity" and job security there, but I couldn't stand flying that plane and its destinations. There is a time in a man's life, when his happiness is more important than the "status quo". I made the right decision. Of course, nothing's stopping me from going to other airlines, but for now, I like what I'm doing.

But, getting back on track with the topic at hand: "Classic Dash Replacement". I still stand by my comments and you know I'm right. This is not a plane that Air Canada needs to put forward. You can't make a good impression stepping off a 777 or 787 and getting on a -100 out of YYZ. It just doesn't look good, it doesn't fit, it's "Mikey Mouse" mate. It's 703 crap. It's Canadian North / Perimeter / Air Inuit / Air Creebec material, not AIR CANADA material. The Q400 is a perfect aircraft to replace the -100/-300.

I'm not sure if I've personally upset you, or you just don't care what your passengers think, but everything I experienced (as a pilot) aside, it's not an aircraft fit for Mainline. If you enjoy it, great, but don't try to sell it to me, or the public. It's not an attractive product anymore. It may have been back in the 90s, but not anymore.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by andy_mtl » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:17 pm

I have to agree with Hansdietrich.
I flew , to be exact , 1410 flights on the classic at Jazz.
While most the guys made it a blast and i had some serious great times, past the initial excitement i truly didnt enjoy the aircraft.

The summer you are sweating on the ground, the winter you are freezing.

If by chance you choose to climb out at prop 1050 , the poor passenger s ears are bleeding in the back.

Even with the syncrophaser on, most the times we had to manually sync the props to try making the best out of it.


The snags started piling up too.
I remember flying in the prairies over new years last year with a relatively new captain, with 7 Mels.


As it was mentioned above, the Q4 does a fine job in terms of performance and efficiency. The dh8 was great for what it was, but its time has come and it is time to move ti better options,as we have then availeable.
Andy
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:24 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:39 pm
KenoraPilot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:27 pm
what are you flying these days? You bash the 8 but what are you currently enjoying now?
I'm flying corporate. It's not perfect, but I enjoy it a lot more than Jazz. The Citation I fly is much nicer, I have more time off to be with my wife and kids and I go to much nicer destinations. I'm much happier than I was at Jazz. I did enjoy the "anonymity" and job security there, but I couldn't stand flying that plane and its destinations. There is a time in a man's life, when his happiness is more important than the "status quo". I made the right decision. Of course, nothing's stopping me from going to other airlines, but for now, I like what I'm doing.

But, getting back on track with the topic at hand: "Classic Dash Replacement". I still stand by my comments and you know I'm right. This is not a plane that Air Canada needs to put forward. You can't make a good impression stepping off a 777 or 787 and getting on a -100 out of YYZ. It just doesn't look good, it doesn't fit, it's "Mikey Mouse" mate. It's 703 crap. It's Canadian North / Perimeter / Air Inuit / Air Creebec material, not AIR CANADA material. The Q400 is a perfect aircraft to replace the -100/-300.

I'm not sure if I've personally upset you, or you just don't care what your passengers think, but everything I experienced (as a pilot) aside, it's not an aircraft fit for Mainline. If you enjoy it, great, but don't try to sell it to me, or the public. It's not an attractive product anymore. It may have been back in the 90s, but not anymore.
I personally think it's a matter of opinion, yes people will dislike it. Others probably enjoy it. I remember flying the DH6 on floats and the passengers loved it regardless of the no AC/Pressurization and 25+ year airframe. Passengers also loved loved the B18, DH2/3 and those airframes are 40-60 years old! The one B18 we had in NWO was 70 years old and the people getting on it loved it! It stank, vibrated, cramped seats, one door, couldn't stand up in the cabin. The Otter was even worse smell and speed wise.

So I will agree that there is a huge difference between 777 service and DH8 service, but the reality of Canada is some destinations don't require a Q400. Encore had a really tough time in YSB because of this....hence why they pulled out and AC with the 37seat DH8-100 still operates 3/4 times daily. I personally would love to see a Q300NG, but for some people the DH8 is a valuable and beautiful airplane. (in the eye of the beholder)

So Hans i'll agree to disagree and agree that our view points are very different and I am glad you're on a nice citation. Life style is way more important than airplane I will agree with you 100%. After losing my forever career job I made the best decision and jumped in with both feet and am making the best experience I can. The experience I take from Jazz and the DH8 is 100% in my control :)

Happy New Year and keep the blue side up :)
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:46 pm

KenoraPilot,

Yeah. Happy New Year!

I'll agree with you. If they come up with a brand new "-100/-300NG" type of Dash, with better, quieter engines, better avionics, more bin space, I'd have no problem. It's not the size of the plane that matters. It's the age of it. It shows. Like the other gentleman said here. It's super cold in the winter and very warm in the summer. I remember flying out of YUL a few times in the winter and I was freezing on the -300. It just needs to go or replaced with a newer machine.

On a side note, I wonder how the new ATR-42-600 fares in comparison with the old ATR-42. It's the "updated" ATR we're all used to.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by C-GGGQ » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:33 pm

As a passenger on a brand new ATR 42 over the summer. Take off power was about as loud as a q400 in cruise and cruise power virtually could not be heard from inside the cabin so I'm all in favour of an ATR 42 fleet for jazz.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by fish4life » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:14 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 7.ece/amp/

These were still blasting around the skies as recent as 2014, lots of MD-80’s as well. AC is hardly the only airline running old equipment around.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by yhz41 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:33 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:33 pm
As a passenger on a brand new ATR 42 over the summer. Take off power was about as loud as a q400 in cruise and cruise power virtually could not be heard from inside the cabin so I'm all in favour of an ATR 42 fleet for jazz.
I second this. But I also always feel a bit of nostalgia from the canadian regional days when I'm on a classic.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by GhostRider6 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:33 am

I agree with other points you’ve made in the past Hans but i’ll Agree ( ish) to disagree with your points on the classic.

The classic is an awesome airplane and I love flying it. I will agree it’s aging ! However, have you had a peek at Q400 reliability ? ( not great)

The classic can takeoff from some nasty tight spots on decently rough gravel or not rough but shorter / tighter paved strips. I know this because I’ve done it...As a pilot, I can also say it’s also dream to hand fly!

There’s a reason it’s being modernized IMO..could a Q300 modernization be valuable? Hell yes! But this being said,I don’t know if there’s many aircraft that could do he classic’s role and fit it as efficiently and go to the places the classic goes ..

Also, look at usefulness .. CHR could use this aircraft overseas as needed or for diverse charter work.

Just because it’s not a glitzy, fast jet does not mean it’s a POS IMHO. Also.. ever check out a HS748??? That’s an old aircraft which is still being flown by some...Again, the plane has its role/ purpose.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:59 am

I think that kind of is his point. The classic is suited to short field dirt strip work and cargo ops for places like perimeter etc. Not for pavement to pavement from the "national flag carrier #1 airline in North America" a more comfortable quieter more efficient aircraft is what is needed.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:09 am

This is a large sale all at once for CMA?
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by TheStig » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:15 am

I've always been a big fan of the Dash, but I don't think you'll ever see the 100/200/300 replaced with updated versions. The profits just aren't there to be made, if you're an airline and you find yourself with $100 million to invest in fleet replacement the smart money is buying narrow bodies. You can buy a 737 or A320 for the price of three Q400's, list price for the Q400 is over $30 million, rumor is the AC (and Delta) will pay less for their A220's than that. Regional value comes from delivering passengers from within 300 miles to major hubs, thus the regional aircraft must compete with cars and buses, which is an uphill battle when landing fees, security fees and nav fees are piled onto the ticket price. Gate availability and ground support costs also work against regional aircraft in increasingly crowed hubs. I think we will see airlines continue to up gauge current routes to larger jet aircraft to continue driving down seat mile costs. Hopefully we see these aircraft in service for a long time but as airlines continue to grow internationally and people continue to move to major urban centres the sun might be setting on the era of true regional air service.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:31 am

Current AC Express fleet per aircanada.com:

46 76 seat jets
24 50 seat jets
44 78 seat props
40 37/50 seat props
*B1900 not listed

My guess as to Express fleet circa 2020:

51 76 seat jets
16 50 seat jets
49 78 seat props
35 37/50 seat props

My guess as to Express fleet circa 2025:

60 76 seat jets
55 78 seat props
20 30-50 seat props *(possible code share)

Older smaller gauge/lower ownership or lease expense aircraft are useful but not realistic in the long term in the Express operating fleet. Every aircraft eventually reaches the end of its useful life. Even AC is dealing with that reality as it renews it’s own fleet. Acquiring a new aircraft in the 50 seat prop category would be quite expensive and likely involve a manufacturer not currently in service in the Express fleet. AC may have to make decisions about how it will maintain a commercial presence in some of the very small communities it currently serves using Express. AC may end up with codeshare agreements with several local tier 2 operators that are currently competitors.

Also, there are routes currently operated by Express that will likely revert back to mainline/Rouge as the AC fleet renewal process evolves and stabilizes. However, having a jet gauge gap from 76 seats (CRJ900/E175) to 145/135 seats (A220-300/Rouge A319) may cause AC to consider the smaller A220-100 as a possible solution to allow for increased frequency on some city pairs.

It is likely the trend for Express will be increased ASM’s but decreased fleet and block hours.
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