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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One list

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Stratopaused wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 8:23 pm
DropTanks wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 6:31 am Here’s the thing about that long post above. The company can put RJ’s at Encore tomorrow. It’s entirely their right as stated in our scope clause. It’s also not up to Encore Pilots to “accept” the aircraft. It would simply happen and you would have to fly them. Just that simple so insinuating that the One List has any bearing on the addition of RJ’s at Encore borders on absurd. If the company wants to place RJ’s out there then so be it, we have no say in fleet deployment. By the way, not sure if you’ve been paying attention but the 600’s are getting refreshed cabins to match the rest of the fleet. They’re not leaving the fleet any time soon....because nobody wants them.
That's entirely true, and conversely it's not like if we don't get the One List back we'll throw a tantrum and go buy RJs ourselves; it's completely out of our hands. That said, if both employee groups are pushing in the same direction, it might give management pause as to whether they're following the right course of action. If even the pilots who would be getting the jets are opposed, they might think twice. I don't think they'd want to put in a big order for RJs, and then have no pilots bid onto them.
The point I'm trying to make is that all of our interests align on a lot of subjects, and acting in solidarity will benefit us all in the long run. A commitment to push management to keep jet operations at WestJet, even if it it's not realistic that it'll happen any time soon and the statement doesn't have any real teeth, would be a show of good faith by the Encore MEC to support WestJet pilots. Or if not that, then something else that's important to WestJet pilots. There are a lot of AC pilots who are still bitter that Jazz took their jets, not to mention that the E175s got moved to SkyRegional, and I don't think it would benefit anyone to widen the divide between the two pilot groups here. With the Onex purchase, something completely unforeseen could arise that negatively impacts WestJet pilots, and you might find that you'd like our support when that happens.
Solidarity is important, and solidarity needs to happen both ways.
While your post describes an ideal situation, I don’t believe it can come to fruition. If they were to put RJ’s at WEN, encore pilots can “not bid them” as an act of solidarity. However, it’s not like when Encore pilots didn’t bid Swoop as an act of solidarity (probably also cause they didn’t want to work their bags off). RJ’s at WEN aren’t the same situation as bidding over to Swoop. It’s a position at the same company nobody would want. Therefor Captain positions will be forced and FO spots if not bid for will be given to all new hires or forced to junior FO’s. This could also create a ripple effect of junior Q captains or Senior FO’s sell their soul to get Jet Pic cause if it’s not them someone will be forced to anyways.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: One list

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:28 pm
doiwannabeapilot wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
Uh, no.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 8:38 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:28 pm
doiwannabeapilot wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
Uh, no.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
The man with many AvCanada names felt that there was an ALPA constitutional issue that would mean the one list would never work. That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather the previous LOA was voted down by the mainline pilots.
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: One list

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

JBI wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 2:18 pm
doiwannabeapilot wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 8:38 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:28 pm

Uh, no.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
The man with many AvCanada names felt that there was an ALPA constitutional issue that would mean the one list would never work. That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather the previous LOA was voted down by the mainline pilots.
Acknowledged.
Fair enough. Thanks.
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak »

DFR aside; in the current environment of quite possibly more mergers and acquisitions, a purchase of a "regional" carrier for instance makes merging the said carrier with the "regional airline" of WestJet wiser and more practical. This was one of the main reasons for creating it separate.

With China and other Far East operations looming, there will be substantial opportunities emerging for growth affecting all levels. Keeping a broader perspective will keep the focus on what is coming ahead.
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Mr. North
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North »

"This was one of the main reasons for creating it separate."

What world do you live in? The reason they made Encore seperate was to reset labour costs! Not for some hypothetical merger ten years after the fact. You give the c-suite far too much credit. They have been hanging on by the seat of their pants. The pre Onex stick price and executive turnover says it all.
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altiplano
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano »

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ALPApolicy
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Re: One list

Post by ALPApolicy »

Demeter wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:41 pm Voting yes to this is a no brainer as it makes the pilots unified and content vs a divisive group. Industry leading really. It only strengthens us and the company. WJ has to wait for the encore TA to wrap up is my guess and glad the WJ MEC has stopped playing games to get this rolled out.
Not sure this statement (underlined, in bold) has aged well, given the “B” scale at Encore.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: One list

Post by ALPApolicy »

JBI wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 3:02 pm
altiplano wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:02 pm This is an interesting topic... not just as it relates to Westjet/Encore but as related to other airlines.

Certainly worth looking at how other airlines manage flow from their regionals both now and in the past - including flow from wholly owned regional subsidiaries.
Altiplano, respectfully what other airlines have is somewhat irrelevant at this juncture as unlike all of them, Encore pilots were always given one list. This was a key term in the terms of employment at Encore when being hired and Encore pilots have a seniority number on the WestJet Pilot Department List. In addition, the Mainline Pilots and ALPA consistently reassured the Encore pilots that they supported One List. It would be a different story if we didn't have Seniority and wanted something new.
Biff wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm
You are correct, the company could do that. It doesn't change the fact that the document is missing on a few different levels. [...] I'm hoping it won't be but I also refuse to be held hostage.
What items other than the potential lay-off provisions do you find lacking? Or that the company is holding the mainline pilots' hostage with?
Biff wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm
I'm willing to take the risk, knowing that it could be detrimental to our Encore pilots.
In Unity? Make no mistake, it will be extremely detrimental for a significant number of Encore pilots. A No vote will be dividing this pilot group. We've spent the last two years working on improving things for our pilot groups. The Encore pilots have been supporting the mainline pilots to prevent the company from being able to whipsaw between us. A No vote will accomplish something that the company would love - pitting the two groups against each other. Marvelous. For me, meh, I'm content to stay at Encore, practice some law on the side and live a good life in Calgary when we move back to Canada, but for most senior Encore pilots, especially those living in Calgary, a no vote is completely 'f-ing' them over.

If you're ok with that, especially when there is a very clear path to still improve things with not splitting the pilot group, well that's your prerogative I suppose.

But that gets us back to the first part. The mainline pilots will accomplish something that the management group hasn't been able to accomplish - animosity and division between the two groups. There's no reason for management to come back to the mainline pilots and say "ah ok, what can we do for you to make it pass?" until they've first gone to the Encore group and said "So, can we do anything for you guys instead?" Flow certainly helps recruitment, but there are certainly many other options available to the company, especially if they are now working with a divided pilot group.
Biff wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm Law degree from Dalhousie? That's impressive, mine's engineering, but I'm not an engineer. How many years did you practice contractual law?
6 years full time practicing plus another 2 part-time after I returned to flying. I am an active practicing lawyer with the Law Society of British Columbia and was previously a member of the Nova Scotia Barrister's Society. I've lectured on aviation, negligence and contract law for flight instructor refresher courses and aviation insurance conferences. I've also written legal articles for various aviation magazines as well as a book on pilot careers in Canada and have spoken career fairs.
Biff wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm
What was the contractual clause of the LOA that I got wrong?

" Good faith is an abstract and comprehensive term that encompasses a sincere belief or motive without any malice or the desire to defraud others."

As far as good faith goes, would you not agree that ratifying an agreement solely to get something in writing, knowing that you are going to effectively cancel it once it's ratified is almost the exact opposite of the above definition? Regardless, it would most likely be up to an arbitrator to decide if it was in good faith, not you or me. I'll say it again, I don't feel that a trip back to the arbitrator will do us any good.
Section 11.01 provides that a party seeking modifications to this Agreement (just the LOA - not the CA) shall provide written notification of its desire to amend this agreement. Thereafter, meetings to address such notification shall occur within thirty (30 calendar days). Nothing contained herein shall prevent the Parties from utilizing a a facilitator to help resolve any differences.

This clause requires the company to come to the table regarding this LOA. It doesn't require them to settle something, but it gives all parties an avenue to renegotiate. Section 11.03 gives the parties an option to cancel the agreement.

If the MEC came out in writing and said "Vote for this and then we'll immediately seek and amendment" then yes, that probably wouldn't be considered good faith. However, if its voted in but there's a change in the mandate from the pilots on how they want the agreement to be interpreted there's nothing made in bad faith there. As we've seen recently, a pilot group's opinions are a fickle thing.

As of right now there is no reason for the company to renegotiate if the LOA is a No vote. And there is no additional lay-off protections for the vast majority of mainline pilots. But it is certain that there will be a pretty incredible betrayal of the Encore pilots. There is a significant downside for no real upside other than an artificial feeling of being able to tell the company "screw you"
Biff wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm
This is where a lot of mainline pilots disagree with you. Perhaps we've become accustomed to being presented an inferior document while being told to not worry about the details, they will be worked out later, only to be told later that we agreed to what was written.
I'm not saying don't worry about the details. Other than the lay-off provisions and vague notions that mainline pilots can somehow use the One List LOA as leverage for better working conditions at Swoop or mainline, I've not heard significant problems with this LOA. There is some pretty clear language on how mainline pilots can choose to transfer back to Encore and keep years of service as well as vacation (which again, with the status quo and a No vote is not an option), it outlines that some disciplinary items can't be used to prevent pilots flowing as was previously allowed and provides more clarity with respect to transferring between Swoop and WestJet.

With regard to the lay-off provisions, currently the status quo is that there are no provisions for bumping. The old WJPA contract had those provisions, the ALPA contracts do not. If you vote No, Mainline pilots still won't be able to bump Encore pilots. You're not gaining anything by voting No.

Honestly, if I thought there was strategically something to gain for you guys, I'd be saying so. But there's not anything to gain and a whole lot to lose.
Not to beat up on JBI, but he did play the lawyer card in this thread, on more than one occasion, to justify voting FOR the One List. This is known as Fallacy of The Argument from Authority. It doesn’t matter what your credentials are, it matters what the nuts and bolts of the argument are, and what the assumptions are.

We see now that the justifications FOR the One List have all evaporated. The only one left is the moral argument: the Encore pilots had something promised to them in the pre-certification environment.
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Re: One list

Post by FlyingMonkey »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:23 am
Demeter wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:41 pm Voting yes to this is a no brainer as it makes the pilots unified and content vs a divisive group. Industry leading really. It only strengthens us and the company. WJ has to wait for the encore TA to wrap up is my guess and glad the WJ MEC has stopped playing games to get this rolled out.
Not sure this statement (underlined, in bold) has aged well, given the “B” scale at Encore.
It’s not a B scale. It’s a regional airline pay scale, not a jet pay scale. If someone at mainline doesn’t like what is offered to them at Encore, they are not forced into it. It’s a choice. Don’t like it? Take a layoff instead.

Think of it this way, if the one list was not around then 737 pilots would be forced into a layoff. Now they have the OPTION to take a position at ENcore instead and continue to accrue YOS. Please explain how that is worse than a layoff??
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George Taylor
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor »

Do you own a calculator? 50 MMG has a huge impact.
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Re: One list

Post by Blue42 »

George Taylor wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:06 am Do you own a calculator? 50 MMG has a huge impact.
It does but didn’t stop many from bumping down, the majority of Encore spots are now jets drivers that bumped down. If the MOA was a plan to stop that it didn’t work. Westjet will now have a huge training cost.
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor »

Nothing is for sure until they’re are actually Jet guys in the Dash sim. I think they’re are more games to be played yet.
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Re: One list

Post by goldeneagle »

George Taylor wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 am Nothing is for sure until they’re are actually Jet guys in the Dash sim. I think they’re are more games to be played yet.

There is another wild card in play, most here probably so focussed on the seniority issues they are missing the big picture.

May 20 WTI oil contract is bidding at under 5 bucks right now. On Friday I thought 18 was as low as oil could go. This morning when it opened at 11, I said no way it can go lower. A little while ago I posted in another thread that it was bidding at 8 bucks, couldn't possibly go lower. Right now, bid is 4.95.

If this keeps up, it may be cheaper to run 737 on encore routes for a couple months rather than run courses for dash 8.
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Re: One list

Post by sarg »

goldeneagle wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:04 am
George Taylor wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 am Nothing is for sure until they’re are actually Jet guys in the Dash sim. I think they’re are more games to be played yet.

There is another wild card in play, most here probably so focussed on the seniority issues they are missing the big picture.

May 20 WTI oil contract is bidding at under 5 bucks right now. On Friday I thought 18 was as low as oil could go. This morning when it opened at 11, I said no way it can go lower. A little while ago I posted in another thread that it was bidding at 8 bucks, couldn't possibly go lower. Right now, bid is 4.95.

If this keeps up, it may be cheaper to run 737 on encore routes for a couple months rather than run courses for dash 8.
And Alberta Select was about negative $3.00 this morning. Paying the refineries to take your crude.
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Re: One list

Post by Blue42 »

George Taylor wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 am Nothing is for sure until they’re are actually Jet guys in the Dash sim. I think they’re are more games to be played yet.
I agree, lots will change between now and Jun 1st
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Re: One list

Post by 7dirty7 »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:58 am
ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:23 am
Demeter wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:41 pm Voting yes to this is a no brainer as it makes the pilots unified and content vs a divisive group. Industry leading really. It only strengthens us and the company. WJ has to wait for the encore TA to wrap up is my guess and glad the WJ MEC has stopped playing games to get this rolled out.
Not sure this statement (underlined, in bold) has aged well, given the “B” scale at Encore.
It’s not a B scale. It’s a regional airline pay scale, not a jet pay scale. If someone at mainline doesn’t like what is offered to them at Encore, they are not forced into it. It’s a choice. Don’t like it? Take a layoff instead.

Think of it this way, if the one list was not around then 737 pilots would be forced into a layoff. Now they have the OPTION to take a position at ENcore instead and continue to accrue YOS. Please explain how that is worse than a layoff??
+292
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Madman
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Re: One list

Post by Madman »

WestJets biggest problem...ALPA, and the incompetence that their decisions made by those to represent and make the best decisions for ALL its members.
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Re: One list

Post by ALPApolicy »

Mr. North wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 1:00 pm Couldn't have said it better myself JBI. Anyone with a casual interest let alone someone who has "studied the TA immensely" would know that one bargaining unit cannot negotiate seniority onto a seperate bargaining unit. That was never a part of the equation and to suggest otherwise merely demonstrates one's failure to grasp the subject at hand.
Huh? Does anyone have a copy of the failed PTA 1.0?
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Re: One list

Post by ALPApolicy »

JBI wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 2:18 pm
doiwannabeapilot wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 8:38 am
hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:28 pm

Uh, no.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
The man with many AvCanada names felt that there was an ALPA constitutional issue that would mean the one list would never work. That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather the previous LOA was voted down by the mainline pilots.
Hi JBI. I suggest we pool your legal training and experience with my ability to dig and dig and dig. We might actually arrive at the true state of affairs.

I believe my side of the argument is winning. What may seem to have been one list is not. There is one seniority list in place at WSW/WJA and one at WEN.

What appears to be a seniority list, the list generated by the PTA, is not. It is a transfer protocol list. It's aim was never to give super-seniority to Encore pilots when they flow to WSW/WJA. And it didn't and it doesn't. Encore pilots flow to the bottom of the WSW/WJA seniority list when they are hired at WSW/WJA, just like everyone else.

Cheers!

Johnny
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