Show me the reference in a Mach publication, I’ve read them all on this subject and what you advance I have not seen.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:27 pm They can't take over 19.9% subject takeover restrictions, and they will announce the amount of shares acquired on the offer close date.
If you don't think they are going to cancel them, or return them you better pay attention to how many they get and cancel them yourself on the 13th 6pm Montreal time...
I think No is good though, even if you're holding shares. These guys see a new future for Transat beyond just rolling it in...
The other big players aren't a "No" because they think the stock price is going down...
DOH merge.
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Re: DOH merge.
Re: DOH merge.
I'm not going to do your reading for you. If you don't understand why they are limited to 19.9% and that they will announce on the 13th where the offer stands/amends than you maybe are missing something.TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:01 pmShow me the reference in a Mach publication, I’ve read them all on this subject and what you advance I have not seen.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:27 pm They can't take over 19.9% subject takeover restrictions, and they will announce the amount of shares acquired on the offer close date.
If you don't think they are going to cancel them, or return them you better pay attention to how many they get and cancel them yourself on the 13th 6pm Montreal time...
I think No is good though, even if you're holding shares. These guys see a new future for Transat beyond just rolling it in...
The other big players aren't a "No" because they think the stock price is going down...
Even if they voted more than 19.9%, it won't change the outcome. Letko + Mach with their min offer would be nearly 40% and would defeat the deal. I don't think it has the support anyway though, so what happens here might not matter
Re: DOH merge.
I think it will be good for AC pilots. More than whatever good you perceive it might be for the greater AC.TSAM wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:06 pm Do you think a NO vote will be good for AC and AC pilots? AC will just up the purchase price to $14-15/share. You may not get a profit share next year. You may not get as much salary increase in a an opener. Sure there's more at stake than just money, but so far your concerns are unfounded and unproven at this point, all just hearsay, you have no idea how things will play out, no one does. It's often said pilots don't have the big picture, I wonder why they say that?.....
We're doing great as is, thanks.
Take barely any your overstaffed lease fleet and as
ll the trouble integrating your organisation will bring. No thanks.
I'll reiterate the day that it happens, if it happens, I'll work for consensus and unity, but until it does In against it 1000% as an employee and a shareholder. It's nothing personal.
Re: DOH merge.
Not that I even completely disagree with you, but just for discussions sake. 8 Years ago I was dead-set against rouge, I didn't want the disruption I perceived in what I felt my career path was projected to be, I believed there was not merit to the business case and it would eventually be sold off.
Fast forward, AC has grown rapidly, Westjet's expansion and business model has been disrupted and the airline has been profitable enough to buy one of our biggest competitors. You could try and make the argument that this might have happened anyways with out rouge and AC was poised to grow due to external factors and the industries upwards cycle, but that's a difficult argument to make just based on opinion.
What I'm trying to get at is that, if it benefits AC, it can benefit all of us, maybe just not in the short-term. I see it as an opportunity to get rid of one of two of large Canadian competitors, that will drive profitability upwards. Consolidation in the US market is what lead to profits, profits lead to pay. I believe that the ability to open the contract 4 years ahead of 2024 is a tremendous opportunity for significant gains.
Re: DOH merge.
Careful consolidation can go very wrong as well. Consolidated between AC/CDN in 2000 was to give AC massive market share and allow the combined entities to be profitable. Instead it gave WestJet, small at the time, an opportunity to grow and take the lion share for itself. The lesson? The lower cost competition won the battle for the economic spoils of consolidation. Not the merged entities.TheStig wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:04 am
What I'm trying to get at is that, if it benefits AC, it can benefit all of us, maybe just not in the short-term. I see it as an opportunity to get rid of one of two of large Canadian competitors, that will drive profitability upwards. Consolidation in the US market is what lead to profits, profits lead to pay. I believe that the ability to open the contract 4 years ahead of 2024 is a tremendous opportunity for significant gains.
What we don’t know is what the competitions reaction will be to an AC/AT merge and there will be a response. Sunwing, Air France/KLM, tour companies such as Thomas Cook or TUI. Competition Bureau here and in the EU.
I can guarantee one thing. Even if they approve the merger......actually especially if they approve the merger, the competition bureau will make certain AC does not lock up markets and that competition is given footholds moving forward. AC won’t have 100% of the combined market share 10 years from now.
To believe there won’t be retraction from the combined size after consolidation is fooling oneself. It almost always happens. Not immediately, but almost always.
Re: DOH merge.
I appreciate your perspective, and more discussion.
Rouge is not (allegedly) successful because of second rate wawcon for pilots. It is successful because of the higher seat density and lower frill costs drive the lower casm.
I say allegedly, because we really don't know. It's not seperated out in financials. It certainly has resulted in our stagnation of Mainline conditions as we sought to narrow the gap, so the corporation certainly succeeded in that respect.
Also air travel around the world has seen unprecedented growth in all markets, all sectors. There is no reason to suggest that our lower wawcon is the crux of growth at rouge or Mainline.
How did the last integration of a struggling competitor work out? Do we still enjoy all their market share? No, it was filled by upstart carriers, primarily Westjet. Just as Westjet adds 787 ops we look at opening up the market, giving up routes, slots, gates from a mutual competitor... just as flair and jetlines come along, swoop, etc... There is no way all those Transat aircraft make the move, there is no way all those routes and flights make the move in an integration.
Opening the contract could be a double edged sword, particularly as you integrate a new LCC. You may see it all arbitrated into a new C-scale as they integrate TS/LOU 74 and grow the LCC. A lot of unknowns there. I have faith in our new NC Chair, not the VC though, and not about 40% of our MEC... I'm not sure how the potential new arrivals will fit the landscape either. Turbulent time to open the contract.
I might like to see Rovinescu gone before we make any big moves. That guy is a stone, can't get a drop if water... if you want anything without having to give on everything else, you are going to have to be prepared to take it to the streets... We always give more than we get anytime we are in a quid pro quo arrangement with him. Sometimes what we get disappears!
We also need to find some stronger leadership at ACPA if we want gains. We need to see that pressure applied to change the mindsets of some in the line... the idea that we aren't worth more, that we have to use offsets to achieve gains, the idea that we need to work more to earn more. We need a fucking history lesson.
We are starting to see moves in the right direction, but as far as I'm concerned the air over there is still too polite, too much fear of rocking the boat. Too many statements like: "The Company will never go for that" or "The Company has said that's a non-starter".
Maybe Rob Giguere will change that somewhat. He's got nothing to lose and maybe an axe to grind with AC management.
Rouge is not (allegedly) successful because of second rate wawcon for pilots. It is successful because of the higher seat density and lower frill costs drive the lower casm.
I say allegedly, because we really don't know. It's not seperated out in financials. It certainly has resulted in our stagnation of Mainline conditions as we sought to narrow the gap, so the corporation certainly succeeded in that respect.
Also air travel around the world has seen unprecedented growth in all markets, all sectors. There is no reason to suggest that our lower wawcon is the crux of growth at rouge or Mainline.
How did the last integration of a struggling competitor work out? Do we still enjoy all their market share? No, it was filled by upstart carriers, primarily Westjet. Just as Westjet adds 787 ops we look at opening up the market, giving up routes, slots, gates from a mutual competitor... just as flair and jetlines come along, swoop, etc... There is no way all those Transat aircraft make the move, there is no way all those routes and flights make the move in an integration.
Opening the contract could be a double edged sword, particularly as you integrate a new LCC. You may see it all arbitrated into a new C-scale as they integrate TS/LOU 74 and grow the LCC. A lot of unknowns there. I have faith in our new NC Chair, not the VC though, and not about 40% of our MEC... I'm not sure how the potential new arrivals will fit the landscape either. Turbulent time to open the contract.
I might like to see Rovinescu gone before we make any big moves. That guy is a stone, can't get a drop if water... if you want anything without having to give on everything else, you are going to have to be prepared to take it to the streets... We always give more than we get anytime we are in a quid pro quo arrangement with him. Sometimes what we get disappears!
We also need to find some stronger leadership at ACPA if we want gains. We need to see that pressure applied to change the mindsets of some in the line... the idea that we aren't worth more, that we have to use offsets to achieve gains, the idea that we need to work more to earn more. We need a fucking history lesson.
We are starting to see moves in the right direction, but as far as I'm concerned the air over there is still too polite, too much fear of rocking the boat. Too many statements like: "The Company will never go for that" or "The Company has said that's a non-starter".
Maybe Rob Giguere will change that somewhat. He's got nothing to lose and maybe an axe to grind with AC management.
Re: DOH merge.
Very interesting discussion.
What I see here is upper management wants this deal because it is good for them, not for the pilots.
They know AC has the best wawcon in Canada so they don't feel owing you something.
If pilots want something, they need to be ready to stand firm and don't forget they are AC and not Jazz.
What I see here is upper management wants this deal because it is good for them, not for the pilots.
They know AC has the best wawcon in Canada so they don't feel owing you something.
That's why investors like him.That guy is a stone, can't get a drop if water
If pilots want something, they need to be ready to stand firm and don't forget they are AC and not Jazz.
Re: DOH merge.
Stig,
I hear you, but I don’t share your confidence in ACPA. In fact the idea of having the contract open up under ACPA down right scares me, considering the turmoil that will be underway. My first thought is......which toe do we blow off this time?????
The only positive I can see is that a merger will lead to a representation vote. With an opener under ALPA I would feel much more comfortable.
Altiplano,
You called me crazy last time for a similar comment. To be clear during a merger integration the elected representation takes over all aspect of representation, with the EXCEPTION of seniority integration. ACPA would still have full autonomy over seniority integration.
That might make you feel better, but it shouldn’t. ALPA will clobber ACPA unless we have learned from the last integration.
With that said, I’m also wondering if this deal is dead.
Cheers.
Re: DOH merge.
It’s not the people that is the problem. It’s our structure. It’s lack of resources. It’s making decisions without quality input from resources that know what they are talking about.
To put it in pilot speak. You can’t make a quality decision to land at a specific airport when someone gives you erroneous information on runway conditions.
Re: DOH merge.
AC ups it to $18.
Secures Letko support for acquisition.
AC new hire courses postponed.
Good luck everyone wherever you sit and whatever happens.
Secures Letko support for acquisition.
AC new hire courses postponed.
Good luck everyone wherever you sit and whatever happens.
Re: DOH merge.
Re ALPA, - I am generally pro-ALPA. I wouldn't have a problem if we transitioned ACPA to ALPA, but not like this. ALPA wants us and we can make gains in the deal by negotiating a Union merger. We already secured Group A carrier status with our own EVP at the head table. We also secured seperate election to be held for Canada board and no voting position for ALPA C president at the head table. Allied/American recently secured a rate reduction to entice them more... There is money on the table here, if you just give it up we lose that.
Also, there is no way I'm voting Transat's representation to take over representing us at AC unless it's a complete bump and flush of all committees and positions.
I have no problem with experienced TS pilot involvement, but I'm not handing over the keys to the top positions to guys that just showed up on the property. I want AC guys in the key positions who know our contract, our issues, and our past until we get up and running as a unified group. Then open it up for election.
Also, there is no way I'm voting Transat's representation to take over representing us at AC unless it's a complete bump and flush of all committees and positions.
I have no problem with experienced TS pilot involvement, but I'm not handing over the keys to the top positions to guys that just showed up on the property. I want AC guys in the key positions who know our contract, our issues, and our past until we get up and running as a unified group. Then open it up for election.
Re: DOH merge.
Last edited by FL320 on Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: DOH merge.
Been listening to that for more than three years now. The deal went cold. Ask your ACPA rep why. Probably get a more accurate response by asking someone at Transat or Jazz why.altiplano wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:20 pm Re ALPA, - I am generally pro-ALPA. I wouldn't have a problem if we transitioned ACPA to ALPA, but not like this. ALPA wants us and we can make gains in the deal by negotiating a Union merger. We already secured Group A carrier status with our own EVP at the head table. We also secured seperate election to be held for Canada board and no voting position for ALPA C president at the head table. Allied/American recently secured a rate reduction to entice them more... There is money on the table here, if you just give it up we lose that.
Any takers on the Transat side?
I'm voting ALPA. Hands down. : I do not believe ACPA will put a ring on it as Beyonce would say.
If we vote ACPA we will still be having this conversation a decade from now.......minus three more toes and a finger
Re: DOH merge.
Where do you see AC new hire courses postphone?
You DO realize that even with 550 AT pilots who likely won't be here for a year still, we are still short hundreds of pilots.. right?
Congrats to anyone who held their Air Transat stock after the announcement and didn't sell to market.
Re: DOH merge.
Want a little ALPA inside info?Fanblade wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:33 pmBeen listening to that for more than three years now. The deal went cold. Ask your ACPA rep why. Probably get a more accurate response by asking someone at Transat or Jazz why.altiplano wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:20 pm Re ALPA, - I am generally pro-ALPA. I wouldn't have a problem if we transitioned ACPA to ALPA, but not like this. ALPA wants us and we can make gains in the deal by negotiating a Union merger. We already secured Group A carrier status with our own EVP at the head table. We also secured seperate election to be held for Canada board and no voting position for ALPA C president at the head table. Allied/American recently secured a rate reduction to entice them more... There is money on the table here, if you just give it up we lose that.
Any takers on the Transat side?
I'm voting ALPA. Hands down. : I do not believe ACPA will put a ring on it as Beyonce would say.
If we vote ACPA we will still be having this conversation a decade from now.......minus three more toes and a finger
ACPA was given everything they wanted, and still walked away. Makes you wonder why...
And Altiplano, if we vote and ALPA takes over you do realize that the entire LEC/MEC goes to vote, right? The AT reps don't just step in and take over. And since committes are appointed by the MEC, they also vacate by default and everything starts fresh, just with a lot more support from a real union and members from other ALPA carriers come in to help. I really wonder how much you actually know about unions, mergers and how it all works.... The ACPA koolaide is strong at Air Canada and has been since the ACPA night when I was hired. So I don't blame you.
If it goes to a vote, I am voting ALPA.
Re: DOH merge.
Zing.
This would be my first Union merger. As I said bump and flush and I'll consider it. I'd want it laid out clearly immediate flush and new vote... no interim period.
I'm not voting for anything that results in a recently AT guy just became AC guy to lead a new Air Canada pilot group.
At least not at first... once we're united and on the same page I'll support whoever will do the job best.
For courses, I guess we'll see... I heard the one this week may be the last for a while... they may have moved a few up into it last minute. I imagine until the CMSC training picture is formed and the AT acquisition takes shape they have their hands full
Previously they were planning 26, 9, 30 I think... Well see if they happen.
This would be my first Union merger. As I said bump and flush and I'll consider it. I'd want it laid out clearly immediate flush and new vote... no interim period.
I'm not voting for anything that results in a recently AT guy just became AC guy to lead a new Air Canada pilot group.
At least not at first... once we're united and on the same page I'll support whoever will do the job best.
For courses, I guess we'll see... I heard the one this week may be the last for a while... they may have moved a few up into it last minute. I imagine until the CMSC training picture is formed and the AT acquisition takes shape they have their hands full
Previously they were planning 26, 9, 30 I think... Well see if they happen.
Re: DOH merge.
It's the law.altiplano wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:56 pm Zing.
This would be my first Union merger. As I said bump and flush and I'll consider it. I'd want it laid out clearly immediate flush and new vote... no interim period.
I'm not voting for anything that results in a recently AT guy just became AC guy to lead a new Air Canada pilot group.
At least not at first...
Interim, both unions represent the members of their own "sides" while elections happen. Then once elections happen the groups are represented by one MEC/Union for negotiations purposes but both "sides" continue to work under their respective contracts until a new contract is negotiated.
As for an AT guy leading the group. He just may, but it would require the majority vote. No one gets grandfathered into a position.
And keep in mind this goes both ways. From my understanding if ACPA wins the popular vote for representation we have elections again. Otherwise it opens up situations where an AT pilot can file a DFR since they didn't get to vote for the individuals representing them.
So basically, expect an election.
Calls have already gone out for the 9th of Sept. I know a half dozen people who have already given notice at their prior jobs.
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Re: DOH merge.
If they are postponing new hire classes it probably means they decided to reduce the MAX. It's not about the merger other than them putting all their eggs in the Transat fleet as a replacement for it. The training department is about to be very busy.
Re: DOH merge.
I have no idea where anyone is getting any info on reducing classes. Show me the report?
There's a class starting tomorrow and another on Sept 9th.
There's a class starting tomorrow and another on Sept 9th.