New TC Cannabis rules

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cncpc
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by cncpc »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:20 am
Kejidog wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am What blows me away is they think they will have the ability to test to the full 28 days.
IMHO, TC has no intention of testing anyone. The only venue they’d have is during a medical and if they tried, they would almost definitely face a legal challenge. The 28 day thing is simply an interpretation of “fit for duty”. It could allow an Aviation Medical Examiner to deny a medical if the candidate were to admit consumption within the past 28 days.

There’s no secret where they got that number, it’s the max time THC will show up in a blood test. In the event of a positive test for THC after an accident, TC can say, “We have a policy that would prevent such results. This person violated that policy. It’s not our fault.”
After a short time, it is not THC that shows up, it is metabolites of THC, THC-COOH that show up as a result of smoking, but to my knowledge, the metabolites do not cause highs, they indicate the use of THC at some point in the past. Within the timeframe in which the body eliminates the THC.

The intention of this rule is to stop pilots from smoking marijuana at all. It certainly offends the Charter.
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av8ts
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by av8ts »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:15 am
Kejidog wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am Most local cops i know do not follow the 28 day rule as they know how junky the science is.
You are implying that most local cops smoke pot?
Just the ones he knows
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AuxBatOn
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by AuxBatOn »

Most cops he knows smoke pot? I see the kind of crowd he hangs out with...
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by Capt. Underpants »

cncpc wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:18 pm
After a short time, it is not THC that shows up, it is metabolites of THC, THC-COOH that show up as a result of smoking, but to my knowledge, the metabolites do not cause highs, they indicate the use of THC at some point in the past. Within the timeframe in which the body eliminates the THC.

The intention of this rule is to stop pilots from smoking marijuana at all. It certainly offends the Charter.
Absolutely. The problem is unlike alcohol which has been fairly well researched, there is no definitive test to show when there is no longer an intoxicating effect. Maybe someday science will catch up, or maybe it won't. Until such time that we have a reliable test, I am perfectly okay with stopping anyone in a safety-critical position from consuming THC - including non-flying managers like myself.
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bcguy2004
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by bcguy2004 »

Just in case this hasn't been posted before. I just got a letter from Transport re: Cannabis Use.

I don't fly much anymore (it's been 5+ years since my last flight), flew commercially briefly in 2003-2005 and since changed careers happily after a shot at ATC which didn't work out.

A few months back I went for a Cat 1 medical so I could go for some refresher flight training locally. I broke the unwritten rule of going to the same clinic as my regular GP for my Transport Canada medical exam. My GP is aware of my occasional Cannabis use and is unconcerned. However Transport doesn't feel the same way. I am (now) aware of the requirement to wait 28 days between cannabis use and acting as a pilot.

Here is the letter I received for everyone's perusal. I'm not too worried about it as I don't have plans to fly until at least April but someone who is depending on the medical for work certainly wouldn't feel the same way.

Image

I just watched this too, now I understand!

https://youtu.be/aYHDzrdXHEA
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2R
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by 2R »

According to the Lancet medical journal long term use of cannabis can cause serious mental health issues .
Other peer reviewed medical journals make similar warnings about the adverse brain damage caused by long term pot use .
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C-GGGQ
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by C-GGGQ »

As far as I understood the serious mental health issues is for those who use under the age of 25 (when your brain chemistry is finally set)
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bcguy2004
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by bcguy2004 »

Fair enough. This post is just an FYI for the community. Judge me all you want, I could care less. There are far more damaging stimulus in our society that I won’t get into.

“Life is a terminal, sexually transmitted disease.” I think it was Carlin that said that.

I’ll update how it goes after my GP appointment in January. We’ll see if I have to pee in a cup. In the meantime: unfiltered sobriety!

Although I could indulge in a whole medicine cabinet of substances and alcohol and still be legal to fly the next day.
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digits_
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by digits_ »

Just heard some government infomercials on the radio. Don't drive high. Wait 4 hours after you have consumed cannabis before you go driving.
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PilotDAR
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by PilotDAR »

FWIW, it was a new and specific question on the newly revised TC medical form on my CAT 1 medical last week. My honest answer to the doctor easily closed the topic during my examination.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Capt. Underpants »

bcguy2004 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:19 pm Although I could indulge in a whole medicine cabinet of substances and alcohol and still be legal to fly the next day.
You may want to read the regulations again.
101.01 (1) In these Regulations,

fit for duty, in respect of a person, means that their ability to act as a flight crew member of an aircraft is not impaired by fatigue, the consumption of alcohol or drugs or any mental or physical condition;
602.02 An operator of an aircraft shall not require any person to act as a flight crew member or to carry out a preflight duty, and a person shall not act as a flight crew member or carry out that duty, if the operator or the person has reason to believe that the person is not, or is not likely to be, fit for duty.

Alcohol or Drugs — Crew Members
602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft

(a) within 12 hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage;

(b) while under the influence of alcohol; or

(c) while using any drug that impairs the person’s faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.
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Blowin' In The Wind
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Blowin' In The Wind »

Capt. Literal
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Whatever mate. :roll: It's all there in black and white.
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bcguy2004
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by bcguy2004 »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:52 am Whatever mate. :roll: It's all there in black and white.
You missed my point but that’s ok.

It’s my understanding you can use Cocaine and a myriad of other banned drugs and it will be undetectable very shortly thereafter. Which is the joke about having such a hard line on cannabis, including CBD.

This is commonplace in the oil and gas industry. Many workers will indulge in hard drugs on their brief time off and still pass the piss test.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Capt. Underpants »

I didn’t miss anything. I was responding to a claim that one “could indulge in a whole medicine cabinet of substances and alcohol and still be legal to fly the next day.” The regulation “literally” says you can’t. The responsibility is on the individual and I get that some see this as inadequate, but since random drug and alcohol testing has been frowned upon by Canada’s courts, there’s little else the regulator or an operator can do until a higher level of suspicion is raised.
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indieadventurer
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by indieadventurer »

It was clear to me he was using hyperbole.
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OldInstructor
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by OldInstructor »

No one has mentioned ICAO, as a signatory we have international responsibilities. For Canadian pilot licenses to be accepted operating Canadian aircraft outside of Canada I suspect a very conservative policy was required.
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RatherBeFlying
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by RatherBeFlying »

The published research on pilot, and driver, performance with cannabis is pretty sparse. As before mentioned, one paper determined that it takes a maximum of 28 days for cannabis metabolites to leave your system. Lower initial dose and BMI may result in a shorter THC elimination time. Minister Garneau used this to require an abstention period of 28 days.

A UK study of accident involved drivers showed a correlation of significant increased risk with higher levels of blood THC, but not with a lower level. This indicates that there is likely a non zero blood THC level that is not impairing, as is accepted for alcohol in drivers.

Some decades old simulator studies showed impaired performance 24 hours after consuming an entire joint, supplied from a US government source. Missing are results for 48, 72, 96 hours. I suspect that normal piloting performance would be restored in a fraction of 28 days.

Where alcohol is concerned, there is a substantial body of peer reviewed science describing:

1: impairment correlated to blood levels

2: time it takes for alcohol levels to be eliminated.

So far nothing anywhere near for cannabis.

The problem is that an unknown number of pilots who have been long term consumers of cannabis are performing their own secret trials. This number may increase now that cannabis is legal.

Far better would be studies of pilot performance over several days after partaking in a joint passed around.
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losercruiser
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by losercruiser »

As expected, it will take time before the studies are done and we know more about impairment. 28 days is likely not the final outcome, it will be much less. But until we have the data, they are being extra conservative with the rules.

I expect within 10 years we'll be down to an hours/days limit.

And I also expect as the testing systems are improved, CBD will be unrestricted. As it should be.
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by 2R »

Better shave your head if they start hair tests as those tests show everything , the keratin quality can accurately assess you sexual activity as well . They can even tell if you are an onanist without looking at the hair on the palms of your hands ;)
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