Lol. Me too.goingmissed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:25 amThe internet is like beer goggles that makes it difficult for me to read social interaction cues.Bede wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:20 amSorry, I think you missed my sarcasm.goingmissed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:18 pm
Yeah, sure, if you think that a comment mixed with derogatory terms and objectifying women is acceptable.
DEC
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: DEC
Re: DEC
I agree, college grads are not necessarily a bad thing. The way our industry values (or doesn’t) relevant experience is the real problem. I have not had an easy or quick go of it in aviation. I also am not of the mindset that “because i suffered you should too”. Do I value my Navajo and King Air experience? Absolutely. While not good jobs necessarily, they are friends and memories I will have forever. However, is 300 pic navajo really applicable to a 737 captain? Lets be honest, all it means is that person probably saw some messed up shit and a few emergencies. Am I saying airline captain is easy? No. I’m saying it’s statistically safer than 703/702. Why wouldn’t an FO with 1000 or 2000 hours on type (relevant experience) but no pic be just as if not more qualified for command than a guy with 2000 hrs and 500mpic in a small piston? Because TC license requirements haven’t been updated to the reality of our industry.Transition9er2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:16 amI agree with you, and I’ve said many times that jazz is a fantastic place to work. I truly believe that!Inthrustwetrust wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:55 pm I disagree with above statement. AC isn't be all end all. Not everyone will want to switch
I’m simply writing from my experience based on conversations I’ve had with many junior captains and FO’s. the majority (not all) have expressed they’ll be moving over to AC at the first opportunity they get.
Also, I’m not saying college hires are a bad thing, there’s a significant number of low time non college hires as well on the seniority list who can’t upgrade.
Bottom line is, as long as the aviation industry continues to lower their hiring minimums to allow them to suggest there’s no pilot shortage, I believe they’re only delaying or possibly compounding the issue over the short term.
I guess time will tell.
Re: DEC
Jazz will lose a lot of pilots to AC and probably quite a few to Porter once they get going. The Porter pay scale is more appealing than Jazz. There were unfilled CA spots in the equipment bid just before the Corona meltdown.
Let’s Go Brandon
-
- Rank 1
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:28 pm
Re: DEC
I can see one logical way jazz can compete. Increase wages! Oh wait we signed a 450 year contract.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:18 pm
Re: DEC
BAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!Inthrustwetrust wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:01 am I can see one logical way jazz can compete. Increase wages! Oh wait we signed a 450 year contract.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:27 pm
Re: DEC
they wont loose any to AC, right now ac prefers to interview OTS guys instead of jazz pilots who completed the process and were waiting for a PIT class at Air Canada. Way to go!
Re: DEC
The AC 60% Jazz quota is measured annually.CanadianPilotQc wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:33 amthey wont loose any to AC, right now ac prefers to interview OTS guys instead of jazz pilots who completed the process and were waiting for a PIT class at Air Canada. Way to go!
Entirely likely that AC will fill first courses of 2022 with OTS and then fill later courses with Jazz. As long as the 2022 math equals or exceeds 60% then AC is compliant.
Re: DEC
I respectfully disagree. I learned more as a 703 captain in 2000 hours than I did in 7000 hours as a RJ/737 FO. The soft things like learning how to get your way when people are putting pressure on you are things best learned as a PIC on light aircraft. I also found that captains who built their experience on small aircraft were more fun to fly with than the ones who had only ever flown in a regimented environment. On the flip side, those that spent a lot of time as FO's knew what it was like to be an FO...C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:00 am While not good jobs necessarily, they are friends and memories I will have forever. However, is 300 pic navajo really applicable to a 737 captain? Lets be honest, all it means is that person probably saw some messed up shit and a few emergencies. Am I saying airline captain is easy? No. I’m saying it’s statistically safer than 703/702. Why wouldn’t an FO with 1000 or 2000 hours on type (relevant experience) but no pic be just as if not more qualified for command than a guy with 2000 hrs and 500mpic in a small piston? Because TC license requirements haven’t been updated to the reality of our industry.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:08 am
Re: DEC
So I guess everyone with an ATPL at Jazz is eligible to upgrade very soon? Within 6 months to a year?
Asking for a friend haha
Asking for a friend haha
Re: DEC
Definitely, yes. It might even be earlier than that.the-minister31 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:00 pm So I guess everyone with an ATPL at Jazz is eligible to upgrade very soon? Within 6 months to a year?
Asking for a friend haha
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:51 pm
Re: DEC
You are correct no matrix, however if your seniority number comes up and you have an ATPL your NOT a Captain.YOUR offered the opportunity to be assessed and qualify as a Captain.av8ts wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:39 pmNorth Shore wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:10 pmDon't have a dog in this fight, 'cos I'm at neither, but if you're not qualified at Encore, why would/should you be considered so at Jazz?flyguy2135 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:40 am I’m wondering if the DEC opportunity will pull some people from encore currently not qualified to upgrade because of the matrix.
It would be a no brainer if you’re living in YVR or YYZ...
Jazz doesn’t have an upgrade matrix. If your seniority number comes up and you have your ATPL your a Captain
There's a huge difference between ENTITLEMENT and EARNED.
Re: DEC
Well what's the fail rate for upgrades? That will be your difference between 'entitlement' and 'earned'. I doubt it's huge. 10%?Loon-A-Tic wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 4:34 amYou are correct no matrix, however if your seniority number comes up and you have an ATPL your NOT a Captain.YOUR offered the opportunity to be assessed and qualify as a Captain.av8ts wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:39 pmNorth Shore wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:10 pm
Don't have a dog in this fight, 'cos I'm at neither, but if you're not qualified at Encore, why would/should you be considered so at Jazz?
Jazz doesn’t have an upgrade matrix. If your seniority number comes up and you have your ATPL your a Captain
There's a huge difference between ENTITLEMENT and EARNED.
In an airline setting generally, if the main deciding factor to assign an upgrade between a 10k hour pilot and a 2k hour pilot is the seniority, then it's hard to justify this as 'earned'.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: DEC
‘Fail’ is a broad definition (includes voluntary withdrawal from upgrade training).
10% is probably accurate from both pre-COVID and current times.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1249
- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am
Re: DEC
@C-GGGQBede wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:02 pmI respectfully disagree. I learned more as a 703 captain in 2000 hours than I did in 7000 hours as a RJ/737 FO. The soft things like learning how to get your way when people are putting pressure on you are things best learned as a PIC on light aircraft. I also found that captains who built their experience on small aircraft were more fun to fly with than the ones who had only ever flown in a regimented environment. On the flip side, those that spent a lot of time as FO's knew what it was like to be an FO...C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:00 am While not good jobs necessarily, they are friends and memories I will have forever. However, is 300 pic navajo really applicable to a 737 captain? Lets be honest, all it means is that person probably saw some messed up shit and a few emergencies. Am I saying airline captain is easy? No. I’m saying it’s statistically safer than 703/702. Why wouldn’t an FO with 1000 or 2000 hours on type (relevant experience) but no pic be just as if not more qualified for command than a guy with 2000 hrs and 500mpic in a small piston? Because TC license requirements haven’t been updated to the reality of our industry.
I also disagree - I had some PIC on smaller aircraft flying in N Canada. I also have a CV that stands out from those of most other people.
Things I learned in N Canada have kept me out of trouble flying large jets to all corners of the Globe.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Re: DEC
I’m not saying someone with 2000 mpic. Talking . 2000 tt for both. One with 500mpic on a navajo, one with 1800 hours on the crj or whatever airliner they got “right out of flight school”Bede wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:02 pmI respectfully disagree. I learned more as a 703 captain in 2000 hours than I did in 7000 hours as a RJ/737 FO. The soft things like learning how to get your way when people are putting pressure on you are things best learned as a PIC on light aircraft. I also found that captains who built their experience on small aircraft were more fun to fly with than the ones who had only ever flown in a regimented environment. On the flip side, those that spent a lot of time as FO's knew what it was like to be an FO...C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:00 am While not good jobs necessarily, they are friends and memories I will have forever. However, is 300 pic navajo really applicable to a 737 captain? Lets be honest, all it means is that person probably saw some messed up shit and a few emergencies. Am I saying airline captain is easy? No. I’m saying it’s statistically safer than 703/702. Why wouldn’t an FO with 1000 or 2000 hours on type (relevant experience) but no pic be just as if not more qualified for command than a guy with 2000 hrs and 500mpic in a small piston? Because TC license requirements haven’t been updated to the reality of our industry.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:08 am
Re: DEC
I think both give a different value to the crew. Time on type and with the company is important, but so is time actually being in charge. Single pilot vs multicrew also is an important aspect. Someone with 500 or 1000 multicrew PIC brings a lot of valuable experience to the left seat that someone with only right seat experience doesn't.C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 7:57 amI’m not saying someone with 2000 mpic. Talking . 2000 tt for both. One with 500mpic on a navajo, one with 1800 hours on the crj or whatever airliner they got “right out of flight school”Bede wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:02 pmI respectfully disagree. I learned more as a 703 captain in 2000 hours than I did in 7000 hours as a RJ/737 FO. The soft things like learning how to get your way when people are putting pressure on you are things best learned as a PIC on light aircraft. I also found that captains who built their experience on small aircraft were more fun to fly with than the ones who had only ever flown in a regimented environment. On the flip side, those that spent a lot of time as FO's knew what it was like to be an FO...C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:00 am While not good jobs necessarily, they are friends and memories I will have forever. However, is 300 pic navajo really applicable to a 737 captain? Lets be honest, all it means is that person probably saw some messed up shit and a few emergencies. Am I saying airline captain is easy? No. I’m saying it’s statistically safer than 703/702. Why wouldn’t an FO with 1000 or 2000 hours on type (relevant experience) but no pic be just as if not more qualified for command than a guy with 2000 hrs and 500mpic in a small piston? Because TC license requirements haven’t been updated to the reality of our industry.
The thing is unless you have a lot of hours doing a lot of different things, you will probably miss some experience that someone else might bring to the flightdeck.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:30 pm
Re: DEC
I would have to also mostly disagree with C-GGGQ. In my 2800 hours (which is not as much as others in this thread), I’ve learned more as a Twin Otter FO, than as a Classic Dash/Q400 FO. Now, not to say i haven’t learned much in the 705 world, but the stuff you learn from captains, or learn as one in northern Canada is the stuff that will help you in sticky situations.Eric Janson wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 3:43 am@C-GGGQBede wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:02 pmI respectfully disagree. I learned more as a 703 captain in 2000 hours than I did in 7000 hours as a RJ/737 FO. The soft things like learning how to get your way when people are putting pressure on you are things best learned as a PIC on light aircraft. I also found that captains who built their experience on small aircraft were more fun to fly with than the ones who had only ever flown in a regimented environment. On the flip side, those that spent a lot of time as FO's knew what it was like to be an FO...C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:00 am While not good jobs necessarily, they are friends and memories I will have forever. However, is 300 pic navajo really applicable to a 737 captain? Lets be honest, all it means is that person probably saw some messed up shit and a few emergencies. Am I saying airline captain is easy? No. I’m saying it’s statistically safer than 703/702. Why wouldn’t an FO with 1000 or 2000 hours on type (relevant experience) but no pic be just as if not more qualified for command than a guy with 2000 hrs and 500mpic in a small piston? Because TC license requirements haven’t been updated to the reality of our industry.
I also disagree - I had some PIC on smaller aircraft flying in N Canada. I also have a CV that stands out from those of most other people.
Things I learned in N Canada have kept me out of trouble flying large jets to all corners of the Globe.
- KenoraPilot
- Rank 8
- Posts: 902
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:34 pm
- Location: 'berta
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm
Re: DEC
Can someone explain why they posted for Toronto only? Isn’t YUL as junior as YYZ?
Or maybe they know they have a pool of upgradable F/Os in YUL and none in Toronto?
Or maybe they know they have a pool of upgradable F/Os in YUL and none in Toronto?