pouring some on the curb for Navair

airliner · Post by **airliner** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:36 pm

after all the poop that has gone on in the past handful of months, this most recent accident was the one that did it.
It took too many sacrifices, but the most recient thing is navair is no more.
So now my feeling go out to the pilots who now find themselves jobless.

Good luck to all, and dont worry there are plenty of decent jobs for grabs right now.

Longtimer · Post by **Longtimer** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:52 pm

Please advise if this is official or only a rumour.

airliner · Post by **airliner** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:44 pm

truth....sorry...

ehbuddy · Post by **ehbuddy** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:55 pm

The investigation will determine the official cause of the accident but it was not hard to miss that MU2 on many occasions at CYXJ turning base to final at 1/4 mile back and 500 feet.........45 degress of bank and a rate of descent that would make your hair stand on end.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:02 pm

Easy there, buddy. Things are still pretty fresh. Hold the bashing off for a bit. Time and place.

bandaid · Post by **bandaid** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:30 pm

Be respectful.

Highflyinpilot · Post by **Highflyinpilot** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:33 pm

No need for that, respect man respect. 2 people lost their lives, those 2 people were someones son or daughter.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:36 pm

here we go with the sensitivity police. I didn't read anything that was disrespectful.

ehbuddy · Post by **ehbuddy** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:49 pm

You are correct..........I was out of line.

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:51 pm

It's not sensitivity that's being policed...but to start indirectly suggesting that it was pilot error at this stage of the game is irresponsible at best. Agreed?

Lets keep it to what we know - that we lost 2 colleagues, that more may be out of a job, and that there's a bunch on this forum that are probably affected in a VERY personal way by this accident. Whatever you think about the company in question, it's got to be a tough ride for everybody who works there right now...

And for f@cks sake, just days from Christmas...

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:55 pm

the original tony · Post by **the original tony** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:06 pm

out of respect to the families and the guys i know flying there who may be in for hard times soon, i will be brief.

Dust Devil, shut the hell up. sensitivity police.
when a friend of yours passes in an accident like this, we'll see how the shoe fits your foot.
not very well. guaranteed
again, my respects to all involved, and best wishes for the best of outcomes for the boys and girls that are doing it everyday.

Highflyinpilot · Post by **Highflyinpilot** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:01 pm

Exactly what pugster said

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:09 pm

At least the industry is moving. If these guys are willing to move, they'll find work in short order.

I_Drive_Planes · Post by **I_Drive_Planes** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:46 pm

Regarding the "sensitivity police" and "disrespect"

Personally, if I ever screw up and pile it in I would want people to talk about it. I want people to say more than "gosh darn he was a good guy, condolences" I want people to speculate about how I screwed up, I want people to discuss it, right away, when the impact is the greatest. I want people to say "Jesus he was an idiot for doing that, come to think of it I've been doing that and getting away with it, I won't do it anymore because it could've been me." If I get killed in an aircraft I want to be the guy that TC talks about in its PDM seminars, and that flight instructors use as an example so that others won't repeat my mistakes.

The only disrespect being shown is not discussing the accident, that is a real waste. Now people will say "ok discuss the accident, but later when the wounds have healed a bit" I say discuss it now, when it's fresh in our minds and emotions are high, then it will have the greatest effect on our habits and decisions as pilots.

That being said I would like to express my deepest condolences to the families of our fallen brothers.

Planes

Highflyinpilot · Post by **Highflyinpilot** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:53 pm

How do you know they screwed up and piled it in? That might have nothing to do with it at all, thats how rumours start

I_Drive_Planes · Post by **I_Drive_Planes** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:24 pm

I don't know any of the circumstances of the accident, I didn't imply that I did, or that they screwed up at all. That's not the point of my post. Speculation (true or not) makes us think, and those thoughts affect our decision making process. Down the road the TSB will come out with a report dispelling all rumour and speculation. Using available information, thinking about, and talking about the ways that it could have happened affects me as a pilot, and the decisions that I might make today. We need to see past the emotion of the event, and ask how can this make us safer, I feel that speculation does that.

Planes

edited for grammar

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:30 pm

I agree.

Cat

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:59 am

If in fact Navair is wrapping things up, I would sincerely appreciate one of their Navajo Captains to send me a PM if they are looking for work.....

stef · Post by **stef** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:06 am

Go ahead and speculate all you want if you feel it increases safety or whatever your rationalization is. Just shut up about it in public.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:19 am

I'm with I drive planes on this one

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:36 am

Yea. There's a difference between "could it caused by not de-iced properly?", and "I bet they didn't de-ice properly". Looking at the possible causes can point out things that new pilots don't know to be careful of, and maybe that older pilots have gotten lax about dealing with properly. I doubt anyone here is foolish enough to say that they think the two pilots in question messed up in one way or another without any firsthand knowledge, or an official report from the TSB. But simply asking if it could have been caused by one thing or another isn't insulting their memory, it's attempting to get something useful out of what has happened, and to try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:45 am

The facts are the facts and two people have lost their lives. I have attended funerals for fallen mates in the past and know what its like. People want to know what happened whether its 30 seconds after the accident or 3 years.

The MU-2 is an aircraft with a poor record. The aircraft itself stacks the deck against the pilots from its very existence. Having flown in the big hills of the West Coast in the past I sympathise with those that day in and day out get the job done with inferior equipment and very little support. These people are usually new to the industry and for what they lack in experience is made up for in enthusiasm etc. Too many people are dying in the hills of Western Canada and the mountains of the north and its time Transport Canada pulled its finger out and did something about it. This is another tragedy that will be written up as a 75 page report.

The aircraft in question is banned by numerous countries around the world because of its nasty characteristics. TC should be doing the same. A full review of aircraft requirements, training and company standards for operations in such hostile environments needs to be done and the industry itself held responsible. I myself am sickened by the loss of life and the realization that some of it could be avoided.

For those who want to attack me persoanlly please read paragraph one.

Rest in peace lads.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:54 am

RB-211.

While I respect your soorows for fallen aviatiors, I believe your characterising of the MU2 is flat out wrong. Contrary to popular belief, the MU2 is better in ice than most turboprops (test pilots put 8 inches of ice on it during a certification review), and performs well on single engine as long as the NTS system works. There is nothing inherently dangerous about this airplane other than it is cheap, and a stupid lawyer buy it and put it in. However, it is an airplane that is meant to be flown in a professional manner, by professionals, not guys with 1000 hours, single pilot as happends in the US. It is closer in flight characteristics to a jet than it is to lets say, a King Air. Banning this aircraft would be nothing but a knee jerk solution.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:06 am

Well put bede, until you fly it you can't say a word, if you fly it the way it is suppose to than there is nothing wrong with it at all, very good aircraft, and safe.