So let me get this straight - AC is the only airline NOT using the CEWS for their pilots, past June 30th? But Sunwing, Transat, Westjet are?

As far as I know-Yes. I’m on the Surplus list. I mean CEWS would be nice and all, but I understand AC’s point of view. I thought Management was just playing hard ball with the Government.

Only a couple days left before they have to give us our notice... I wish they would hurry up and do it already.

CEWS nice and all? Not sure if you've lived through a downturn before, but every penny counts.

$2000 per month on CERB
$2500 ballpark on CEWS...hmmm

For some, that will be the difference between putting groceries on the table for our families and going to the food bank. I'm sure the vast majority of WB skippers are doing well though, collecting $210k+...sitting at home?

Or enlighten us...how are the other unions able to negotiate CEWS at null cost to their airlines?

Fly the flag....really?

alkaseltzer wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:02 pm CEWS nice and all? Not sure if you've lived through a downturn before, but every penny counts.

$2000 per month on CERB
$2500 ballpark on CEWS...hmmm

For some, that will be the difference between putting groceries on the table for our families and going to the food bank. I'm sure the vast majority of WB skippers are doing well though, collecting $210k+...sitting at home?

Or enlighten us...how are the other unions able to negotiate CEWS at null cost to their airlines?

Fly the flag....really?

CEWS is $3388
CERB is $2000

That’s a big difference

Sky Regional, as per an email from Russ Payson, will terminate CEWS on July 4th due to a requirement for ‘additional changes in legislation’. I’m curious if Jazz will be terminating as well at the start of July?

For many AC and Express employees, CEWS will be a bridge to a layoff not a bridge to return to active status.

Perhaps this is the issue or perhaps it is the large employer layoff provisions of the Federal Labour Code that are in conflict with the CEWS legislation.

That's well put Rudder- can't really add anything more to that statement. A CEWS extension offers a couple huge advantages over going to EI or CERB. We continue to receive benefits, pension, and most importantly (in my opinion), YOS. Coming back after 2 years on layoff to year one flat pay is the biggest kick in the nuts. It's a piss poor situation to be in, and unfortunately a lot of us are in it.

That being said. I'm not waiting for someone to tell me CEWS is being extended. Tough decisions will have to be made soon. I'm extremely grateful that my family has 6+ months of living expenses stashed away. It'll lessen the short term blow, but it'll still cause a ripple effect for my personal finances down the road.

As for other airlines offering the subsidy... I hear WJ has been misapplying CEWS. Not sure about the details or anything, but maybe there was some confusion as to how its been applied in the past, and how it's supposed to be applied in the future. This may warrant a second look at the pros/cons of the program moving forward.

I hope we can ALL stay on it.

200Above wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:32 pm As far as I know-Yes. I’m on the Surplus list. I mean CEWS would be nice and all, but I understand AC’s point of view. I thought Management was just playing hard ball with the Government.

Only a couple days left before they have to give us our notice... I wish they would hurry up and do it already.

So how many are laid off ?

162 Furlough
632 Surplus
--------------------
794 no longer needed by my count.

So surplus is just being paid 100% at home, right ?

Not necessarily. I'm Surplus. I have a full (55 hr) block of flying in June.

So you are saying the ACPA couldn’t negotiate a tiny 5% pay cut to avoid sacrificing 162 families ?

We all got into this knowing the score.
We cannot allow the WAGCON to permanently erode to temporarily save junior jobs. We already have a 30% pay cut due to our hours cut saving hundreds of jobs. Eventually we have to worry about the quality of the remaining jobs.

I'm not sure I follow. The 162 are on CEWS and being paid, just like me. Everyone took at 27% reduction in hours (75, now 55 hrs) in order to prevent further layoffs.

Beat me to it Sharklasers.

I agree. I don't expect my fellow pilot group to continue taking concessions, nor do I want them to. I made my own decisions and I have to make the best of it.

In March ACPA and AC negotiated a 6 month (April - September) MOA that reduced all pilots to 55 hours in exchange limited furloughs to no more than 600 prior to the end of September.

The 162 Pilots hired in 2020 were furloughed along with 16,500 AC employees. At the same time the Government announced the CEWS and AC 're-hired' its furloughed employees and placed them on the wage subsidy.

With the release of its Q1 reports AC announced that it is retiring 79 aircraft and is planning to emerge from this crisis 30% smaller and it doesn't forecast 2019 levels of traffic for at least 3 years. At the end of that week AC announced that it's intention to furlough 50-60% of its staff.

Perhaps it's easy being on the sidelines now as a retiree but I think ACPA and AC pilots should endure some pain for its junior members facing furlough.

Unlike a normal, economic recession which is just part of the cycle of this industry, COVID-19 is an entirely different event. Everyone going into this game should know that there is a risk of a furlough with the economic cycles, but COVID is not an economic cycle - it is a pandemic that has triggered an economic cycle. In past economic downturns AC pilots have taken a reduction in hours to keep their colleagues on the property (2008 comes to mind).

I find it tough to stomach the notion that non-furloughed AC pilots, after the 55 hour reduction ending in September, will be back to ops normal and normal pay while 700+ junior members bear the brunt of COVID. Virtually no sector of society is untouched by this event and the notion that senior pilots will carry on their merry way while junior ones take it on the chin is not right or fair. Everyone should feel some of the economic pain of this pandemic.

Even if all 700+ furloughs cannot be avoided, even a 10% cut in hours (~8 hours per month) would at least keep 300+ employed and make it just that much closer for the remaining 400 or so to come back.

L39Guy wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 8:34 am Perhaps it's easy being on the sidelines now as a retiree but I think ACPA and AC pilots should endure some pain for its junior members facing furlough.

Unlike a normal, economic recession which is just part of the cycle of this industry, COVID-19 is an entirely different event. Everyone going into this game should know that there is a risk of a furlough with the economic cycles, but COVID is not an economic cycle - it is a pandemic that has triggered an economic cycle. In past economic downturns AC pilots have taken a reduction in hours to keep their colleagues on the property (2008 comes to mind).

I find it tough to stomach the notion that non-furloughed AC pilots, after the 55 hour reduction ending in September, will be back to ops normal and normal pay while 700+ junior members bear the brunt of COVID. Virtually no sector of society is untouched by this event and the notion that senior pilots will carry on their merry way while junior ones take it on the chin is not right or fair. Everyone should feel some of the economic pain of this pandemic.

Even if all 700+ furloughs cannot be avoided, even a 10% cut in hours (~8 hours per month) would at least keep 300+ employed and make it just that much closer for the remaining 400 or so to come back.

There is a significant employer expense associated with job sharing vs layoff savings. Pension. Benefits. Vacation accrual. Pay progression. Payroll taxes. Etc.

For a projected surplus lasting less than 12-18 months job sharing might make economic sense. In this case, it is entirely possible that recalls will not commence prior to 2022.

Similarly, there is significant expenses with furloughing too. Severance, training being a particularly large expense but there are also non-financial costs too such as morale, loyalty, etc. In other words, this is more than a financial issue but a human issue too.

L39Guy wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 9:04 am Similarly, there is significant expenses with furloughing too. Severance, training being a particularly large expense but there are also non-financial costs too such as morale, loyalty, etc. In other words, this is more than a financial issue but a human issue too.

True. But for anybody who has been in the industry through multiple economic cycles - they have seen this movie before. Some have even had the displeasure of going through the exercise with the complication of CCAA. The wheel will not be reinvented.

Long downturn = layoffs.

rudder wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 8:38 am There is a significant employer expense associated with job sharing vs layoff savings. Pension. Benefits. Vacation accrual. Pay progression. Payroll taxes. Etc.

The other airlines are doing the CEWS at nil cost to their pilot body. Why do we need to have taxable benefits paid while on CEWS?

kiaszceski wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:03 am So you are saying the ACPA couldn’t negotiate a tiny 5% pay cut to avoid sacrificing 162 families ?

Exactly. From the people getting laid off...majority of the bottom half of the seniority list is of the opinion that ACPA only cares about the top 10%.

Sharklasers wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:22 am We all got into this knowing the score.
We cannot allow the WAGCON to permanently erode to temporarily save junior jobs. We already have a 30% pay cut due to our hours cut saving hundreds of jobs. Eventually we have to worry about the quality of the remaining jobs.

This is where many people strongly disagree. $150-220k for the upper end vs being classified to a Dollarama worker for the junior pilots. We all heavily invested and took paycuts to be here.

L39Guy wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 8:34 am Perhaps it's easy being on the sidelines now as a retiree but I think ACPA and AC pilots should endure some pain for its junior members facing furlough.

Virtually no sector of society is untouched by this event and the notion that senior pilots will carry on their merry way while junior ones take it on the chin is not right or fair. Everyone should feel some of the economic pain of this pandemic.

Even if all 700+ furloughs cannot be avoided, even a 10% cut in hours (~8 hours per month) would at least keep 300+ employed and make it just that much closer for the remaining 400 or so to come back.

CEWS is a government entitlement, we are not asking for AC to cover the taxable benefits - highly unreasonable to expect so.

200Above wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:36 am As for other airlines offering the subsidy... I hear WJ has been misapplying CEWS. Not sure about the details or anything, but maybe there was some confusion as to how its been applied in the past, and how it's supposed to be applied in the future. This may warrant a second look at the pros/cons of the program moving forward.

Westjet, Sunwing, Transat...all run by seasoned accountants. Hard to believe.

Sharklasers wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:22 am We all got into this knowing the score.
We cannot allow the WAGCON to permanently erode to temporarily save junior jobs. We already have a 30% pay cut due to our hours cut saving hundreds of jobs. Eventually we have to worry about the quality of the remaining jobs.

I’m sure you know the difference between 5% pay cut on a 150k and a fellow pilot working to feed the family.
So speaking about quality of the remaining jobs, taking another 5% pay cut will bring you to the poverty line and you won’t be able to afford you luxurious life anymore?
Things need to change.
If earning 120k a year is not enough for the next year or two while having earned 200k for the last 10 years you might have seek financial advice.

Do you think the guy getting reduced 320 CA to 737 FO at 55 hours isn't taking a big pay cut? More like 50+%?

Everyone is taking big hits. Everyone has obligations.

Are you sure that guy has been earning 200K for the last 10 years?

How many jobs do you think another 5% is going to save?

Everytime we give on the contract it's gone forever.

There are going to be furloughs, we've minimized them and bought time for ourselves, that's just what it is. Plan accordingly if you don't see somewhat of a recovery coming within the year.

kiaszceski wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 2:05 pm I’m sure you know the difference between 5% pay cut on a 150k and a fellow pilot working to feed the family.
So speaking about quality of the remaining jobs, taking another 5% pay cut will bring you to the poverty line and you won’t be able to afford you luxurious life anymore?
Things need to change.
If earning 120k a year is not enough for the next year or two while having earned 200k for the last 10 years you might have seek financial advice.

The AC plan for 2021 is to match expense to revenue (or better). So if the revenue projection for 2021 is 75-80% of 2019 revenue then that is the expense limitation. That means 75-80% total pilot budget as compared to 2019. That represents “the pie”. It won’t get bigger. Hopefully won’t need to get smaller either.

How do you propose to divvy up the pie? The corporate plan is to remove just shy of 800 pilots (plus the early retirements plus the normal retirements) from payroll and operate with the ‘pilots on lay-off’ provisions of the CBA. DMM’s probably quite low for many rosters as commercial responds to as an yet unknown demand environment in the different markets. Lots of pilots assigned RSV on even lower monthly guarantees.

There is a reason that pilot CBA’s have provisions for reductions, reduction in force, and layoff. It is because it is a (sad) reality of the airline business. We dodged it for 10 years. That was a great run. Unprecedented. But the last ones hired in each hiring cycle have unfortunately always been most affected.

JT is running around with his COVID era “sunny ways” plan throwing money at anything and anyone (except the airline business). But it will not change the reality of the impact on the economy of COVID. We cannot wish it away and things will not be back to normal anytime soon.

rudder wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 2:51 pm
JT is running around with his COVID era “sunny ways” plan throwing money at anything and anyone (except the airline business). But it will not change the reality of the impact on the economy of COVID. We cannot wish it away and things will not be back to normal anytime soon.

All the other airline pilots in Canada that can enjoy the CEWS past June 30th are definitely enjoying JT's "sunny ways".