Am I becoming Sweet'n'Juicy?

[Airtids]

Here's the scenario: There's a kid out here who completed his training for an RPP recently (not with us). He came in this morning to get us to act as Authorized Person and sign off his Student Pilot Permit, which we normally are able to do. We were unable to do it this time though, because he didn't have his paperwork in order (Flight/Written test results, PTR incomplete, etc.). So this afternoon, I see him pile into his plane with a passenger, and go for a flight. On his return, I was on the ramp, and casually ask him if his passenger was a flight instructor, to which he answers "No". So I ask if he managed to get his RPP signed off, and he says "No, but T.C. was supposed to fax me a 'Special Flight Permit'". So I ask if he has it on him, to which he once again responds in the negative. Whether this 'Special Flight Permit' actually exists or not, I don't know yet (but I'll be asking TC in the morning if such a thing exists). Funny how if you want to do things right, it takes 6-8 weeks, but this appeared in under 2 hours .

Now, I'm not a huge stickler for paperwork, although given the current litigious society we live in, and the business I am involved in, I have gained a new appreciation for it. Flying without all your docs is NOT a huge safety concern in my mind. My biggest concern here is that someone is breaking a law that I am forced to abide by, and more importantly, that this kid is doing it on HIS VERY FIRST FLIGHT which doesn't exactly speak volumes to his respect for the rules that allow us to do what we do with some degree of safety. I follow the rules, run a tight ship, and pay the financial cost for doing so. My opinion is that everyone else should do the same. Aviation would not work if we didn't all have a healthy respect for the regs. So now I find myself wondering how to proceed.
A) Do nothing, let it slide, pull the stick outta my a$$
B) Talk with his folks (who seem complicit- Dad saw him off)
C) Call TC Enforcement
D) ?

What say you?

[cyyz]

Here's the scenario: There's a kid out here who completed his training for an RPP recently (not with us). He came in this morning to get us to act as Authorized Person and sign off his Student Pilot Permit...

that this kid is doing it on HIS VERY FIRST FLIGHT

So what is it? Is he done his RPP or was he getting a student Permit? Again, how is this his first flight if he's finished his RPP?

Maybe I didn't follow your story properly...

so answer D - get facts straight, - Final answer..

VVV Cat's answer is good too, but I want the story!!!

[Cat Driver]

Airtids :

I have re read this and decided to edit my comments.

Cat

[KAG]

What would have happened if that student and pax crashed and died. What would TC say, who would they hold responsible, would the schools insurance even cover the accident, and then who do you think they would look to point a finger - you the instructor.

I would be calling up this student, demand to see this form, and if it doesnt exist rip him/her a new asshole. Also I make damn sure he/she doesn't fly solo again untill they get there shit in order. It may sound harsh but flying illegally and getting caught is harsh. And it looks poorly on you and the school.


Cheers.

[cyyz]

What would TC say, who would they hold responsible, would the schools insurance even cover the accident, and then who do you think they would look to point a finger - you the instructor.

So this afternoon, I see him pile into his plane with a passenger, and go for a flight.

Like I said get facts straight, because this has REALLY really gone down hill, why the hell would an FTU's insurance which covers FTU aircraft have anything to do with Joe Smiths Private airplane?

Why would TC blame this FTU for anything if buddy went and killed himself in his own plane??? "you didn't jump in front of his prop to stop him?"

Guess they could be saying the same about 1/2 the operators in Canada and their "shady maintenance" according to our posters.

[Airtids]

Sorry, thought it was pretty clear. When you go through your training, you get a SPP which allows you to go solo. Upon completion of your training, an AP can sign off the back of your SPP to temporarily allow you to exercise the privilege of an RPP (or PPL, whatever) until TC sends you your 'real' document. Without the document, you cannot exercise the privilege of an RPP (ie. carry pax). This is his first flight upon completion of all the knowledge and skill requirements to hold the RPP, but he still only holds a SPP, because the SPP has not been endorsed.

Not my student, not my airplane, but my name on the SPP (theoretically, I'm covered by TC as I'm acting as their agent). KAG, as usual, however, we're thinking along the same lines. And Cat, that was my initial feeling as well, but it sort of irks me.

There, that should really cloud the water. Get it now?

[5x5]

Well, I think you need to speak with both him and his parents. Obviously there is an issue with compliance and as you stated, having your docs with you may not be that big a safety deal. However, not having the documents at all is. Whether you agree with the current state of flight training and TC's policies or not, they are what we have to measure a person's ability and knowledge.

Anyone who flies without being properly certified (especially early in their training) is possibly skirting some kind of deficiency. Nelson isn't that big a place so you probably know who's plane it was and they should be party to any discussion as well. Following the talk, if they seem reluctant to abide by the rules, then perhaps contact TC.

It's not only him and his passengers at risk. What if he was to casue a collision with one of your customers (or yourself) or screws up a landing and parks his plane in your hangar? (not sure of the exact layout in Nelson so that may not be possible).

Anyway, I don't think turning a blind eye is the right thing to do.

[cyyz]

Sorry, thought it was pretty clear. When you go through your training, you get a SPP which allows you to go solo. Upon completion of your training, an AP can sign off the back of your SPP to temporarily allow you to exercise the privilege of an RPP (or PPL, whatever) until TC sends you your 'real' document. Without the document, you cannot exercise the privilege of an RPP (ie. carry pax). This is his first flight upon completion of all the knowledge and skill requirements to hold the RPP, but he still only holds a SPP, because the SPP has not been endorsed.

There, that should really cloud the water. Get it now?

Oh, I had it, and I assumed that's what was meant, he needed the back of his SPP signed off for temporary purposes, which I still find weird that the original school didn't bother doing it for him, but neHoot. Yeah, so in theory he might not have finished his RPP... And yes, SPPs can only solo...

But yeah, like cat said, don't worry about it.... Headaches for you and he'll know who snitched and you'll get more headaches from him...

[cyyz]

Anyway, I don't think turning a blind eye is the right thing to do.

Yes, yes it is.... Next you'll want him going to 70X operators and checking for PPCs and PCCs and other information.....

Here, next time ask if he filed a flight plan to where ever they went? If he says yes, the onus can be left on NavCan..

[cyyz]

What if he was to casue a collision with one of your customers (or yourself) or screws up a landing and parks his plane in your hangar? (not sure of the exact layout in Nelson so that may not be possible).

Anyway, I don't think turning a blind eye is the right thing to do.

Yes, yes it is.... Next you'll want him going to 70X operators and checking for PPCs and PCCs and other information, log books, maintenance etc.

Here, next time ask if he filed a flight plan to where ever they went? If he says yes, the onus can be left on NavCan.

it takes weeks for you but if he's Someones son over in TC and you call about him, which he would have had the paperwork done, you'll have more issues...

And talking to his hill-billy parents, "you telling me how to raise my bouy, strangah?" and thats when the punches start flying...

What if he was to casue a collision with one of your customers (or yourself) or screws up a landing and parks his plane in your hangar? (not sure of the exact layout in Nelson so that may not be possible).

Kinda too late now with what if he had caused this or caused that, he came back in one piece no harm done. You didn't do anything in the first place, you WATCHED HIM ILLEGALLY Go into the A/C and FLY IT with PAX, you're the one who will be on trial for not stopping/reporting him?

Same will be said of you, "what if he crashed, why didn't you call someone to stop him???"

[KAG]

His plane, so what. He’s not licensed, your name is on his SPP, and you witnessed him go flying. Sure we don’t want to be dinks but he at least should be made aware of his stupid actions even if your job as his instructor is done (or in your case just to sign his SPP). At least point it out that he could face some hefty fines and loss of his insurance if something were to happen.
Your name is on his document, you signed it, doesn’t that make you responsible for his actions until he’s got his own name on his freshly minted PPL?

[cyyz]

Your name is on his document, you signed it, doesn’t that make you responsible for his actions until he’s got his own name on his freshly minted PPL?

He didn't sign him off, nothing legally can come back at him unless he pokes his nose into it...

and sign off his Student Pilot Permit, which we normally are able to do. We were unable to do it this time though, because he didn't have his paperwork.....

[Airtids]

He didn't sign him off, nothing legally can come back at him unless he pokes his nose into it...

Except we did provide him with his SPP. I just don't know what possible ramifications that might have as far as exposing us to liability as KAG has suggested.

I did speak with him, and let him know how I personally felt about it and asked him whether that flight was so important to him to risk his license and possible future employment opportunities. I also spoke with his mom, but was looking for dad as he is a pilot as well. Law enforcement to boot .

His training was by a freelancer, therefore no signoff authority.

[aileron]

This is an example of unprofessional attitudes still running it's course through aviation. To just simply turn a blind eye may not be illegal, but it certainly is unethical.

I'll give a hypothetical situation in another industry. Let's say Joe Blog, EIT (engineer in training) is knowingly designing some footings for a friend's garage. His friend nonchalantly mentions this to another, who happens to be an engineer himself (maybe electrical). Due dilligence mandates that the matter be brought up, as professional courtesy this would likely be a one-on-one exchange - but if Joe Blogs is a repeat offender then buddy needs to inform the association. Why? Who knows, maybe Blog doesn't even know how to design footings. Garage collapses, car damaged, insurer investigates, finds buddy knew, association bars due to negligence.

This isn't the same as having the authority to check to see if everyone's paperwork is in order. This is about KNOWING when something is wrong. What if RPP buddy had a glaring problem... maybe his paperwork wasn't in order cause he failed some aspect? What would happen if someone knownigly watched this idiot get in his plane and kill himself and his campanion. Now who feels like the schmuck? What would one say to the TSB when they start interviewing witnesses?

Now this RPP guy has established an attitude and possible pattern of negligence. Great...

[Pugster]

I don't think you're dealing with a legal issue here 'Tids, just a moral one.

Signing off his SPP doesn't imply that you hold any responsibility for what the little bastard does in his "spare" time. It just means that when you processed his paperwork he satisfied the requirements for the SPP.

Now if he cracks up said aircraft and kills his passenger, he didn't do it because his paperwork wasn't in order. However - knowing that you may have been able to influence the little turd-burglar may stop you from sleeping at night. If the aircraft is a rental, I'd contact whoever is renting it out and mention that you're concerned. If the aircraft is owned by his Dad, I'd make a phone call to suggest your concern and make sure you've got the full story. By attempting to sign his RPP the first time, you got involved. By confronting "little Maverick" you got involved even more. No sense walking completely away now; anyways, if you would be ok doing that you probably wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

[Cargo Pilot]

It sounds like this is a paperwork issue, not a safety issue. The 'he mighta killed someone' argument doesn't really apply here.

Don't be a rat-bastard and call TC right away. Pull him aside, let him know how you feel and how you will deal with the situation in the future. If he chooses to ignore you, then he deserves to be reported to TC.

As far as talking to his parents, the guy is a rubber stamp away from being a licenced pilot (RPP considered a licence?). Deal with him directly.

[Cat Driver]

It may be a moot point as far as calling enforcement goes by now.

TC reads this forum on a regular basis and it is possible this may have tweaked enforcement into having a snoop around.

We just had an interesting one here in Nanaimo where enforcement went to extra lengths to nail a guy for a similar thing...a paper work issue....

I am still waiting to see how it will turn out.

Cat

[Airtids]

Cat, it was my hope to not have to go to TC directly. I certainly prefer to deal with things head-on with the individuals involved. If that doesn't work, then you have to go to the next level. I've had similar situations with professional pilots who can't follow the rules, and have gone to their CPs when I had no luck addressing the problems directly. I truly think it's the right thing to do. When liability enters the picture however, the program changes a bit, and you have to consider what is the best course of action to CYA if needed. In this particular case, it seems my ass is covered, so no need to take it to the next level. I just wanted you guys to validate that feeling for me. Thanks.

We don't need each other narcing one another out. What we need is an environment that fosters doing the right thing, and making sure all the players understand how important doing the right thing is. I came here looking for advice, and that's what I got. If enforcement is reading this, then so be it. Hell, the kid and his folks might be reading it too!!

[captain 999]

This is just my opinion...but,
clearly this kid is an idiot,
there are two options,
either he gets taught a lesson now by you bringing up the matter with TC or he gest taught the lesson later when he breaks another rule and ends up killing a few people in the process
(may be extreme, but if he has half a brain, he should know by this point in his life, that there are consequences to being in idiot)

[WF9F]

TC Enforcemenet, now there is a joke. Stay clear of TC as they are probably the most crooked and twisted bunch around.

IMO

WF9F

[Cat Driver]

wf9f wrote:

" TC Enforcemenet, now there is a joke. Stay clear of TC as they are probably the most crooked and twisted bunch around.

IMO

WF9F "

trey kule wrote:

"Cat Wrote:

Never forget that the mentality that works in TC enforcement would have been in the Gestapo in Germany during WW2.

Dont think you are right here....there were some things that the Gestapo would not do. "

Never, never, ever talk to "ANY " TCCA enforcement inspector under any circumstances.

To do so will only expose you to ruthless bully tactics that usually starts with a friendly sugary approach that will soon turn into a real nightmare once these thugs get you trapped in your own words.

Cat

[ei ei owe]

TC enforcement or not, screw this little bastard. How many hours do you need to get a RPP? What's gonna happen to this guy when he decides to go IFR on day with a turn&bank, shitty VSI and altimeter? Is he gonna shoot his own approach in front of me one day or completely shut down a sector of airspace to get vectored down somewhere? Many topics around this site have stated how TC doesn't know crap and we should begin being more proactive in the regs/enforcement. Why not start here? I'm not saying we should lynch the guy but at least make him known to everyone as being a risky pilot and hand out a fine or something (payable to my retirement account).

[North Shore]

Tids,

I think that I'd get my facts straight WRT the "Special Flight Permit" first. I've never heard of one, have you? A call to TC might clear it up. If they exist, and he has one, then no problem. If not I think a quiet chat with the young guy is in order, and depending upon the attitude ("yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full" - no problem; "Fuk you, has-been" - teach a lesson) shown there, perhaps a call to TC. As for his parent being law enforcement - did/does dad know the rules applying in this case, or even that his child knowingly broke them?

How's the skiing?

A.

[Airtids]

Skiing's great, thanks. Certainly better than the flying. How's the parenting?

I'd never heard about one, so I asked. Called the licensing folks this am just to inquire about the 'Special Permit' and our contact said she'd never heard about it either, but would inquire with Prairie region. One may exist, he may have it, but he definitely didn't have it on him, which I don't really see as being a worthy issue, but that's me. If one does not exist, or he didn't in fact have it, that's a different issue, though, and calls for a little pow-wow, preferably before TC needs to get involved, and hopefully nipping it in the bud completely. However, as Cat has said, it may be too late for that now. Dad is a licensed pilot, and therefore SHOULD be aware of the issues. Whether he actually knows what his kid's been up to, who knows.

[Hedley]

Younger males often make very interesting pilots. They usually have excellent vision and reflexes, and learn new material very quickly. Great motor skills, but sometimes truly dreadful judgement. Their brain is marinating in excessive amounts of testosterone, after all.

So, what to do? Ask yourself if this is truly a safety issue, or a paperwork issue.

This is not a situation unique to aviation, btw. Let's say someone is drunk at your house, and announces he is going to drive home. I would hope that you hide the keys. Let's say he's sober and is going to drive home, but his licence plate tag is expired. I hope you don't call the police on him.

If it's just a paperwork issue, I might suggest talking to the kid and telling him that if Transport Enforcement catches him, they're going to ream him a new *sshole, and he is likely not going to enjoy the experience.

If it's a safety issue, express your concerns to the Dad. Trust me, he isn't going to want to see his son kill himself, either.