deleted
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" The disclaimer in all of this, which will be made clear in the series, is just how safe it is to fly in Canada; "
You can save your self the time and effort of dealing with the aviation community to get the answer to that question.
Contact your nearest Transport Canada Civil Aviation office and they will send you truck loads of paper work that the industry churns out for them to hold operating certificates.
All of this paper work will show that in TC's eyes it is 100% safe to fly in Canada, because their paper work mandate makes it so.
Have fun with your investigation of this subject and let us know when you figure it all out.
Cat
You can save your self the time and effort of dealing with the aviation community to get the answer to that question.
Contact your nearest Transport Canada Civil Aviation office and they will send you truck loads of paper work that the industry churns out for them to hold operating certificates.
All of this paper work will show that in TC's eyes it is 100% safe to fly in Canada, because their paper work mandate makes it so.
Have fun with your investigation of this subject and let us know when you figure it all out.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Sorry, let me clarify:
I didn't mean that line to be a question. I meant to say that, through my research, it's obvious that it is extremely safe to fly in Canada. That pilots seem to land planes in all sorts of distress, that air traffic controllers manage to assist disoriented or unseasoned pilots to safety all the time, that catastrophic mechanical problems often result in no injuries or deaths. Basically, just how rare it is that passengers are in any real danger on planes in this country.
I meant to say that this isn't supposed to be a "Danger in the Skies" kind of article.
I didn't mean that line to be a question. I meant to say that, through my research, it's obvious that it is extremely safe to fly in Canada. That pilots seem to land planes in all sorts of distress, that air traffic controllers manage to assist disoriented or unseasoned pilots to safety all the time, that catastrophic mechanical problems often result in no injuries or deaths. Basically, just how rare it is that passengers are in any real danger on planes in this country.
I meant to say that this isn't supposed to be a "Danger in the Skies" kind of article.
Off the top of my head, bad things happen when pilots, ATC, maintenance techs or aircraft designers screw up, such as:
1) aircraft collide. Research TCAS, RA. Lots of good technology there. Google Russian & Swiss boo-boo, which demonstrates what happens when pilots listen to ATC instead of technology. Human interest note: Swiss controller was subsequently murdered by grieving Russian father.
2) aircraft fly into the ground under control. Research CFIT, GWPS, TWAS. Lots of good technology there.
3) aircraft fly into the ground, out of control. Research structural and flight control failure such as airbus vertical stabilizer failure (at least 2 that I know of, AA & Air Transat), Boeing 737 rudder hydraulics, alaskan airlines jackscrew maintentance, cracking & corrosion (Aloha convertible), Al Haynes DC-10 triple hydraulic failure, DHL Airbus 300 SAM strike over Iraq. TWA 800 fuel tank explosion (wiring maintenance), Swissair flight 111 in-flight fire. Obviously maintenance is a biggie here.
Lots of keywords for you to Google.
All I ask is that you don't sensationalize, and try to scare people, the way that the media loves to
1) aircraft collide. Research TCAS, RA. Lots of good technology there. Google Russian & Swiss boo-boo, which demonstrates what happens when pilots listen to ATC instead of technology. Human interest note: Swiss controller was subsequently murdered by grieving Russian father.
2) aircraft fly into the ground under control. Research CFIT, GWPS, TWAS. Lots of good technology there.
3) aircraft fly into the ground, out of control. Research structural and flight control failure such as airbus vertical stabilizer failure (at least 2 that I know of, AA & Air Transat), Boeing 737 rudder hydraulics, alaskan airlines jackscrew maintentance, cracking & corrosion (Aloha convertible), Al Haynes DC-10 triple hydraulic failure, DHL Airbus 300 SAM strike over Iraq. TWA 800 fuel tank explosion (wiring maintenance), Swissair flight 111 in-flight fire. Obviously maintenance is a biggie here.
Lots of keywords for you to Google.
All I ask is that you don't sensationalize, and try to scare people, the way that the media loves to
-
shimmydampner
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1764
- Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm
Well good on ya... I just wonder, if your article or series is actually presenting truth and not sensationalized by horrific hull losses and fiery deaths... how much will your reading public care? Aviation is an industry much misunderstood by the layman and misrepresented in the media -- in journalism and in fiction -- and truth is probably much more boring than fancy.
I think that people get antsy in airports and airplanes largely due to lack of control, lack of understanding and lack of a familiar element. Much the same as why every time I'm in the ocean I'm thinking about sharks. I'm probably about as likely to get bitten as I am to perish in the back of a plane, but I still think about the critters every time! In both cases, ignorance is a huge factor, and it's super that you'd like to clear that up, but people love calamity, and like hearing about plane crashes just as much as they like haering about shark attacks and your reassurances that they're safe might not drum up a lot of sold papers.
All that said... you also might have trouble getting guys/gals on here to relate personal experiences where work is involved. I'm a little foggy on what's confidential and what's not in such an instance, and I sure wouldn't risk my job to help enlighten a public that probably doesn't care! Maybe someone better enformed can shed some light on that?
I think that people get antsy in airports and airplanes largely due to lack of control, lack of understanding and lack of a familiar element. Much the same as why every time I'm in the ocean I'm thinking about sharks. I'm probably about as likely to get bitten as I am to perish in the back of a plane, but I still think about the critters every time! In both cases, ignorance is a huge factor, and it's super that you'd like to clear that up, but people love calamity, and like hearing about plane crashes just as much as they like haering about shark attacks and your reassurances that they're safe might not drum up a lot of sold papers.
All that said... you also might have trouble getting guys/gals on here to relate personal experiences where work is involved. I'm a little foggy on what's confidential and what's not in such an instance, and I sure wouldn't risk my job to help enlighten a public that probably doesn't care! Maybe someone better enformed can shed some light on that?
Tasmin,
Best of luck with your article.
Here are some ideas:
1) Pilots that don't make $250K per year. Most start at less than $10K per year after $50K in training costs, and we have to put are licences on the line every year or six months (for those who fly in the airlines). Makes the whining from teachers about teacher testing seem petty.
2) If you want a big break in investigative journalism, look into Transport Canada. While many inspectors are honest civil servants, many are corrupt cronies, interpreting the regulations to suit their desires and harassing honest operators because the paperwork isn't perfect. Good paperwork doesn't lead to safe practises. You can get more information from Cat Driver, or save his time, and search all his posts.
3) The safety record in aviation is due to people refusing to settle for second best. Everyone knows that a crash gets huge attention and therefore has a huge effect on the airline industry. 2005 was the year of culmination for Flight 2005, a Transport Canada project of questionable value. This program was supposed to drastically reduce the near minimal accident rate. Instead, (I believe), 2005 was a horrible year for crashes. NTAir in BC, Air France, float planes, MU2 in Terrace, Caravan in Winnipeg, etc.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/fligh ... uction.htm
In all honesty, you may not get too many volunteers for your story. In the end we're mostly just flying bus drivers. Some of us where coveralls, some suits and fancy hats. We're just people who love what we do, and that's why we do it. Best of luck.
P.S. I'm from Kitchener. Don't go the flying schools there and get leads. They generally have no clue. They will probably sell you some line about the upcoming "shortage of pilots" in Canada in an attempt to promote their training programs. According to the oldtimers, this "shortage of pilots" story has been around for 40 years.
Best of luck with your article.
Here are some ideas:
1) Pilots that don't make $250K per year. Most start at less than $10K per year after $50K in training costs, and we have to put are licences on the line every year or six months (for those who fly in the airlines). Makes the whining from teachers about teacher testing seem petty.
2) If you want a big break in investigative journalism, look into Transport Canada. While many inspectors are honest civil servants, many are corrupt cronies, interpreting the regulations to suit their desires and harassing honest operators because the paperwork isn't perfect. Good paperwork doesn't lead to safe practises. You can get more information from Cat Driver, or save his time, and search all his posts.
3) The safety record in aviation is due to people refusing to settle for second best. Everyone knows that a crash gets huge attention and therefore has a huge effect on the airline industry. 2005 was the year of culmination for Flight 2005, a Transport Canada project of questionable value. This program was supposed to drastically reduce the near minimal accident rate. Instead, (I believe), 2005 was a horrible year for crashes. NTAir in BC, Air France, float planes, MU2 in Terrace, Caravan in Winnipeg, etc.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/fligh ... uction.htm
In all honesty, you may not get too many volunteers for your story. In the end we're mostly just flying bus drivers. Some of us where coveralls, some suits and fancy hats. We're just people who love what we do, and that's why we do it. Best of luck.
P.S. I'm from Kitchener. Don't go the flying schools there and get leads. They generally have no clue. They will probably sell you some line about the upcoming "shortage of pilots" in Canada in an attempt to promote their training programs. According to the oldtimers, this "shortage of pilots" story has been around for 40 years.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
I'll make you a deal tmcmahon, you contact me and as a sign of your motivation to get a real look into the industry you meet with me either where I live in B.C. or in Europe where I work.
I have enough documentation on just how corrupt the regulator is at the top ( TCCA ) that I very much doubt you could find a news media contact or publisher that would allow you to go public with it.
If you are truly unafraid of the truth and would like to get my stuff e-mail me.
. .
.@..org
I have enough documentation on just how corrupt the regulator is at the top ( TCCA ) that I very much doubt you could find a news media contact or publisher that would allow you to go public with it.
If you are truly unafraid of the truth and would like to get my stuff e-mail me.
. .
.@..org
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Flaps 1 Billion
- Rank 3
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:32 am
After seeing this industry slowly recover from a serious downturn post 9/11, I don't think a series accentuating "incidents" that have happened in the aviation world would be helpful to many of us working in it. These so called incident have probably been investigated and mistakes or problems fixed or corrected, re-hashing them and bringing noteriety to them would also not be helpful to those involved.
Sorry, but I for one would not be willing to participate in something that shone, in any way, a negative light on an industry that hopefully will be my future.
Sorry, but I for one would not be willing to participate in something that shone, in any way, a negative light on an industry that hopefully will be my future.
I'm totally agree with that , just do a comparison with other midle level profession ...istp wrote:Good luck on the article, and please mention something about how shittily most pilots are paid for the amount of responsibility they take on.
-istp
Never ever give up --- up to a point, right?
This industry, and everyone associated with it from pilots, to mechanics, to F/As, to rampies, to owners, is doomed as long as the general public thinks it makes sense to get from Bangkok to Vancouver in 20 hours for $700, or even worse from Vancouver to Toronto for $350. Maintenance costs$$, pilot training costs$$, SAFETY costs$$$$$. Until there is money being generated to pay for these things (ie rational ticket prices), you will continue to see an erosion of this industry in general. Operations will continue to try and outcompete one another in completely unrealistic, unsustainable fashions, fail, and go broke. The current model will simply not survive. All the other gripes have this one factor at the root. By highlighting that reality, you may educate the public in the best possible way for the future benefit of our industry. Trouble is, they might not want to hear about their complicity in the deterioration of this business. Make an interesting read, though.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
-
Flying Low
- Rank 8
- Posts: 928
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:22 pm
- Location: Northern Ontario...why change now?
Here's a brief outline of our industry...
1. The average cost of the training required for a commercial licence with a multi-engine instrument rating is upwards of $50,000 not including the cost of an associated 2 year aviation diploma or 4 year degree.
2. 95% of those teaching the new and aspiring pilots at the flight schools are the least experienced and are paid the least of any professional pilot.
3. After landing that most elusive first operational flying job, which many never do, the pilot is paid anywhere from $3/hour or a yearly salary of $12-20,000 dollars until they gain experience while at the same time trying to pay off their $50,000 plus loan. This is after they start actually flying an airplane which is usually following 6 months to 2 years working on the ground as a ramp rat or agent for the same company in northern Canada somehwere.
4. Once the pilot gains enough experience and hours he/she becomes a Captain and then starts to finally earn a decent living... this is after at least 3 years in some cases.
5. Once the pilot decides it's time to make a move to the airlines he/she will take a large paycut, using Air Canada as an example, from making in the area of $65-75,000 per year at their previous job as a senior Captain to $37,000/year at Air Canada with a move to Toronto.
6. Overall in this indusrtry, the least experienced professional pilots are flying the lowest tech and least reliable equipment with the least amount of regulation governing them while the most experienced pilots are flying the highest tech and safest equipment with the most regulation.
That's about it in an nutshell...
Good luck!
1. The average cost of the training required for a commercial licence with a multi-engine instrument rating is upwards of $50,000 not including the cost of an associated 2 year aviation diploma or 4 year degree.
2. 95% of those teaching the new and aspiring pilots at the flight schools are the least experienced and are paid the least of any professional pilot.
3. After landing that most elusive first operational flying job, which many never do, the pilot is paid anywhere from $3/hour or a yearly salary of $12-20,000 dollars until they gain experience while at the same time trying to pay off their $50,000 plus loan. This is after they start actually flying an airplane which is usually following 6 months to 2 years working on the ground as a ramp rat or agent for the same company in northern Canada somehwere.
4. Once the pilot gains enough experience and hours he/she becomes a Captain and then starts to finally earn a decent living... this is after at least 3 years in some cases.
5. Once the pilot decides it's time to make a move to the airlines he/she will take a large paycut, using Air Canada as an example, from making in the area of $65-75,000 per year at their previous job as a senior Captain to $37,000/year at Air Canada with a move to Toronto.
6. Overall in this indusrtry, the least experienced professional pilots are flying the lowest tech and least reliable equipment with the least amount of regulation governing them while the most experienced pilots are flying the highest tech and safest equipment with the most regulation.
That's about it in an nutshell...
Good luck!
-
Pat Richard
- Rank 8
- Posts: 902
- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: all over
What he said, except substiute "AME" instead of pilots, and then do a comparison with other trades. That might scare you.istp wrote:Good luck on the article, and please mention something about how shittily most pilots are paid for the amount of responsibility they take on.
-istp
http://mindflipbooks.ca/
-
Nightshiftzombie
- Rank 5
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:23 am
- Location: The Dark
Flying isn't safe. No one in their right mind would think that getting in a machine built 40 years ago and going several thousand feet in the air was safe. It is just like russian roulette if you play enough you are gonna die.
"Thats what the Internet is for stupid. Slandering others anonymously."
It's funny to read everyone's posts. If you didn't know anything about aviation and read this one post, you would would wonder why anyone would ever want to get into this industry.
Bad pay, no respect, crappy machinery all while you are trying to build experience.
It almost sounds like trying to become a movie star.
I guess we just love flying. We'll take crap here and there just to do it. It would be nice though if Jane and Joe Passenger didn't think that I drove the BMW to work because the Bentley was in the shop. That the rusty chevette is actually mine. And that I am still making payments on it.
Bad pay, no respect, crappy machinery all while you are trying to build experience.
It almost sounds like trying to become a movie star.
I guess we just love flying. We'll take crap here and there just to do it. It would be nice though if Jane and Joe Passenger didn't think that I drove the BMW to work because the Bentley was in the shop. That the rusty chevette is actually mine. And that I am still making payments on it.
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
In your posts, Tamsin, you neglected to mention FSS, who are also a part of the aviation community, not to be confused with ATC, which is usually the case of any media reporting. You can be forgiven as very few outside (and inside, also), know what we do. But on another note, it might be better if you should do an expose on Transport Canada's Inspectors, chiefly the corrupt ones, who make it their mandate to eliminate small airline companies that they take a dislike to. There are countless stories of small companies going under and bankrupted by these people, just ask CAT. Case in point was Spur Aviation and Great Bear Aviation in Yellowknife, where TC kept grounding the airplanes until both companies went under, as airplanes on the ground don't make any money and the bills keep piling up. The owner died in his only plane crash with well over 35,000 hours, flying his last plane (C206) to Calgary to sell off to pay debts. They even pulled his AME licence which completely cut him off from what he loved to do, fly and fix airplanes. This is one example and those who try to make a go of owning a small airline, would be extremly gratefull to cut out this piece of rot. Oh, and aside, the owner had sent out intentions to sue TC for 5 mil for harassment before he died, which was dropped as the chief witness was now dead.
-
just another pilot
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1069
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:05 pm
- Location: Edmonton
There is an angle - TC as corrupt as the Liberals. They over tax(fees), under serve and have a poltitical agenda. Partizan politics have no place in Transport.
you could also research haw many bankruptcies (both) personal and business) have occured in the aviation industry. Cost cutting is a way of life in this industry. But I digress.
you could also research haw many bankruptcies (both) personal and business) have occured in the aviation industry. Cost cutting is a way of life in this industry. But I digress.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Tamsin:
FSS is bang on, sadly those examples are just scratching the surface of the moral corruption within the top echelon of Transport Canada Civil Aviation.
I will be contacting you soon and it is my hope that what I will give you in documentation will be used to start the cleansing of the cess pool in Tower C in Ottawa...the first one to bring into the spotlight of public scrutiny must be the person in charge the DGCA.
If you think you have the stomach to take on people that high up the power structure I will feed you enough compelling evidence that you will have it easy to get the ball rolling.
Look at it this way, how can aviation be safe if the power brokers that run it are corrupt?
. .
FSS is bang on, sadly those examples are just scratching the surface of the moral corruption within the top echelon of Transport Canada Civil Aviation.
I will be contacting you soon and it is my hope that what I will give you in documentation will be used to start the cleansing of the cess pool in Tower C in Ottawa...the first one to bring into the spotlight of public scrutiny must be the person in charge the DGCA.
If you think you have the stomach to take on people that high up the power structure I will feed you enough compelling evidence that you will have it easy to get the ball rolling.
Look at it this way, how can aviation be safe if the power brokers that run it are corrupt?
. .
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Tamsin, run away while you can! Take it from me. This forum is no place to get reasonable information from. There a great deal of misinformation already on this thread.From Cat Driver: I will be contacting you soon....
Go ahead and use this place as a stepping stone to sources, but do a careful interview with each before you find yourself stuck with persons with "extreme" opinions or just old bitter hasbeens that are just trying to push a narrow agenda or settle some old fight.
