ACPA MEC

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asleep_at_the_yoke
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by asleep_at_the_yoke »

altiplano wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:50 pm Now the YUL vice is gone... the tides are turning.
We'll see. YUL is a tough base for change. The ALPA fear is alive and well over there.
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Ratherbe
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Ratherbe »

Fanblade wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:27 am
Ratherbe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am Most important role? Hmm perhaps. However, the MEC itself makes the decisions not the Chair. He is the spokesman. Whoever they elect will have a difficult job bringing both the MEC and the membership together.

Sorry to say my predictions for MM were correct but I do have high hopes for the only candidate who has stepped forward so far. Hopefully everyone will rally behind him. If the MEC elects a “status quo” Chair then I suspect his tenure will be short.
Ratherbe,

We have a long history of split MEC’s and the chair constantly breaking the tie. TA1 was this way. The last 3 years have been this way.

In fact the last three years have been so bad that MEC members have put lawyers into action against their opposition on the MEC. Not just the TL affair. There is more.
We also have a long history of pilots with different opinions. Gary’s challenge will be to unite all of us, assuming we want to be. If it’s true that if there is a long history of “the chair constantly breaking the tie” it would be in the MEC Minutes. I don’t think this is true. Maybe this was new with MM? FYI, RRO has restrictions on how a Chair should vote to split a tie.

More lawyers? Oh great!

Hopefully things are changing for the better.
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Fanblade
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Fanblade »

Ratherbe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 pm
Fanblade wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:27 am
Ratherbe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am Most important role? Hmm perhaps. However, the MEC itself makes the decisions not the Chair. He is the spokesman. Whoever they elect will have a difficult job bringing both the MEC and the membership together.

Sorry to say my predictions for MM were correct but I do have high hopes for the only candidate who has stepped forward so far. Hopefully everyone will rally behind him. If the MEC elects a “status quo” Chair then I suspect his tenure will be short.
Ratherbe,

We have a long history of split MEC’s and the chair constantly breaking the tie. TA1 was this way. The last 3 years have been this way.

In fact the last three years have been so bad that MEC members have put lawyers into action against their opposition on the MEC. Not just the TL affair. There is more.
We also have a long history of pilots with different opinions. Gary’s challenge will be to unite all of us, assuming we want to be. If it’s true that if there is a long history of “the chair constantly breaking the tie” it would be in the MEC Minutes. I don’t think this is true. Maybe this was new with MM? FYI, RRO has restrictions on how a Chair should vote to split a tie.

More lawyers? Oh great!

Hopefully things are changing for the better.
ACPA doesn’t record votes. Even in the minutes. Crazy right?

The lead up to the TA1 fiasco also had a 50/50 split on the MEC with the chair breaking ties a lot.

But unless you start digging. You would never know.
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Ratherbe
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Ratherbe »

Fanblade wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:15 am
Ratherbe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 pm
Fanblade wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:27 am

Ratherbe,

We have a long history of split MEC’s and the chair constantly breaking the tie. TA1 was this way. The last 3 years have been this way.

In fact the last three years have been so bad that MEC members have put lawyers into action against their opposition on the MEC. Not just the TL affair. There is more.
We also have a long history of pilots with different opinions. Gary’s challenge will be to unite all of us, assuming we want to be. If it’s true that if there is a long history of “the chair constantly breaking the tie” it would be in the MEC Minutes. I don’t think this is true. Maybe this was new with MM? FYI, RRO has restrictions on how a Chair should vote to split a tie.

More lawyers? Oh great!

Hopefully things are changing for the better.
ACPA doesn’t record votes. Even in the minutes. Crazy right?

The lead up to the TA1 fiasco also had a 50/50 split on the MEC with the chair breaking ties a lot.

But unless you start digging. You would never know.
Or I guess you could forget about actually digging and just make up “facts” to support your position.

If I remember there were 6 vs 4 back then so the Chair wouldn’t have needed to vote. I really don’t get the whole recorded vote thing to be honest. Will that be the magic cure for all that is lacking or will it just make the whole process more political? Seems to me that a better decision making process and far better communication is required instead. That’s the Chair’s job.
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Fanblade
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Fanblade »

Ratherbe wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:48 pm
Fanblade wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:15 am
Ratherbe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 pm

We also have a long history of pilots with different opinions. Gary’s challenge will be to unite all of us, assuming we want to be. If it’s true that if there is a long history of “the chair constantly breaking the tie” it would be in the MEC Minutes. I don’t think this is true. Maybe this was new with MM? FYI, RRO has restrictions on how a Chair should vote to split a tie.

More lawyers? Oh great!

Hopefully things are changing for the better.
ACPA doesn’t record votes. Even in the minutes. Crazy right?

The lead up to the TA1 fiasco also had a 50/50 split on the MEC with the chair breaking ties a lot.

But unless you start digging. You would never know.
Or I guess you could forget about actually digging and just make up “facts” to support your position.

If I remember there were 6 vs 4 back then so the Chair wouldn’t have needed to vote. I really don’t get the whole recorded vote thing to be honest. Will that be the magic cure for all that is lacking or will it just make the whole process more political? Seems to me that a better decision making process and far better communication is required instead. That’s the Chair’s job.

Every democracy on the planet has recorded votes. Without recorded votes there is no transparency. It is similar to why an independent press is a fundamental aspect of democracy.

Without transparency there is no accountability. Without accountability things often go bad.

Without transparency the people are not really voting their will. They are guessing. The electorate is left to vote blind.

My recollection is that the someone voted for themselves to become chair and the voting swung from 5/5 to 6/4.

But it was 10 years ago now so it is entirely possible my memory has failed me.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
RippleRock
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by RippleRock »

The ACPA turd needs to be passed. This Membership has a fatal case of constipation. We're going septic.

Every vestige of ACPA needs exercising. There is not one redeeming aspect of what can only be described as a "yellow mess".

Anyone ever notice that when dealing with any issue, a rep would simply say "call me". Why? So they couldn't be held accountable for anything that was said to a member. No written record, no email to quote, nothing to show anyone. It is the ACPA way.

Accountability = zero. Transparency = zero. That means they aren't working for you, and they are hiding their agenda.

The YVR, YWG and YUL base chairs need to go back on the line and reconnect with those they've shafted. They have some explaining to do.
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asleep_at_the_yoke
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by asleep_at_the_yoke »

Seeing the disgraced former Chair posting super toxic shit on the AC forum just makes me shake my head. This person was our leader for three years! Everything that's happened from the TL debacle, the split MEC and him going after certain committee members etc that didn't fall in line is all making sense. I commend anyone who managed to stick out his toxic leadership and made it to the other side. Holy @#$! what a joke. It's embarrassing to see his posts now on the AC forum.
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rudder
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by rudder »

RippleRock wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:50 am The ACPA turd needs to be passed. This Membership has a fatal case of constipation. We're going septic.

Every vestige of ACPA needs exercising. There is not one redeeming aspect of what can only be described as a "yellow mess".

Anyone ever notice that when dealing with any issue, a rep would simply say "call me". Why? So they couldn't be held accountable for anything that was said to a member. No written record, no email to quote, nothing to show anyone. It is the ACPA way.

Accountability = zero. Transparency = zero. That means they aren't working for you, and they are hiding their agenda.

The YVR, YWG and YUL base chairs need to go back on the line and reconnect with those they've shafted. They have some explaining to do.
How much will you have to pay RG is severance? Unions don’t need CEO’s.
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RippleRock
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by RippleRock »

Unions don't need CEO's. That's a fact. Ironic, right?

No clue what backroom deal the MEC signed him to. Likely very costly. He has been next to useless, just like the last one.

Maybe dip into our --equally useless-- strike fund and send him packing with our cash.

It would be very sobering if someone would put a dollar figure to ACPA's follies over the last 20 years. This ridiculous "CEO experiment" would likely fall well into the 7 figure column. I think the beneficiary list of those who took from our dues and capital over the last 20 years would be insanely long.
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asleep_at_the_yoke
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by asleep_at_the_yoke »

RippleRock wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:00 am Unions don't need CEO's. That's a fact. Ironic, right?

No clue what backroom deal the MEC signed him to. Likely very costly. He has been next to useless, just like the last one.

Maybe dip into our --equally useless-- strike fund and send him packing with our cash.

It would be very sobering if someone would put a dollar figure to ACPA's follies over the last 20 years. I think the beneficiary list of those who took from our dues and capital would be insanely long.
Our CEO makes more than our top paid pilots. And a lot of our regular staff make more than our first few years payscale for pilots. That's a joke. No wonder they are all so against ALPA. They want to protect what they have. At the cost of our membership
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Ratherbe
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Ratherbe »

Fanblade wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:19 am
Ratherbe wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:48 pm
Fanblade wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:15 am

ACPA doesn’t record votes. Even in the minutes. Crazy right?

The lead up to the TA1 fiasco also had a 50/50 split on the MEC with the chair breaking ties a lot.

But unless you start digging. You would never know.
Or I guess you could forget about actually digging and just make up “facts” to support your position.

If I remember there were 6 vs 4 back then so the Chair wouldn’t have needed to vote. I really don’t get the whole recorded vote thing to be honest. Will that be the magic cure for all that is lacking or will it just make the whole process more political? Seems to me that a better decision making process and far better communication is required instead. That’s the Chair’s job.

Every democracy on the planet has recorded votes. Without recorded votes there is no transparency. It is similar to why an independent press is a fundamental aspect of democracy.

Without transparency there is no accountability. Without accountability things often go bad.

Without transparency the people are not really voting their will. They are guessing. The electorate is left to vote blind.

My recollection is that the someone voted for themselves to become chair and the voting swung from 5/5 to 6/4.

But it was 10 years ago now so it is entirely possible my memory has failed me.
Without good communication there is no accountability despite whatever voting processes are used. Clear and honest communication can provide transparency with or without recorded votes.

Every democracy has recorded votes? Yes of course they also have voice or a show of hands vote, secret ballot votes, and general consent. I’ve been to quite a few non pilot meetings, like condo owners for example, and have never seen a recorded vote. It’s good communication we need explaining the pros and cons and why the MEC voted the way they did. This has been sorely lacking.

Btw, an MEC Chair candidate cannot vote for themselves. None of them would be in the room when the ballots are cast.
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Last edited by Ratherbe on Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ratherbe
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Ratherbe »

RippleRock wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:00 am Unions don't need CEO's. That's a fact. Ironic, right?

No clue what backroom deal the MEC signed him to. Likely very costly. He has been next to useless, just like the last one.

Maybe dip into our --equally useless-- strike fund and send him packing with our cash.

It would be very sobering if someone would put a dollar figure to ACPA's follies over the last 20 years. This ridiculous "CEO experiment" would likely fall well into the 7 figure column. I think the beneficiary list of those who took from our dues and capital over the last 20 years would be insanely long.
As I’m sure you know the recommendation to have CEO oversight came from the FOS audit. It’s available on the ACPA website if you search for negotiations audit. It’s a damning report that highlights how dysfunctional everyone had become and how much was lost because of it.

Personal attacks against a highly respected former AC pilot suggests that you consider his sage advice as a threat to your own opinions.
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asleep_at_the_yoke
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by asleep_at_the_yoke »

Ratherbe wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:27 pm
As I’m sure you know the recommendation to have CEO oversight came from the FOS audit. It’s available on the ACPA website if you search for negotiations audit. It’s a damning report that highlights how dysfunctional everyone had become and how much was lost because of it.

Personal attacks against a highly respected former AC pilot suggests that you consider his sage advice as a threat to your own opinions.
Former pilot who was a union man, then flipped to management like virtually all other past union leaders. Oh, and wasn't he walked out of the door by AC too? With a golden parachute I'm sure. Now he gets paid $300k a year to to what? I couldn't tell you what benefit we have by him being here, he has been largely silent on national government matters, and seems to be meddling a wee bit too much with the MEC. He is not elected, he is not a pilot anymore. His job is to run the association and oversee the staff, and I'm not even sure he does a good job doing that. I'll happily trade him away for membership in another union that starts with an A. The recommendations from the audit also said to join ALPA, and that ACPA is next to impossible to fix. How many years on now has it been and we still have people yelling and screaming on the forum false truths and lies (and our own elected members as well in a certain eastern base) about ALPA? Stoking fear of the ALPA "boogeyman" coming to take away your seniority and funnel your dues to America. Give me a fucking break.
Ratherbe wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:07 pm
Btw, an MEC Chair candidate cannot vote for themselves. None of them would be in the room when the ballots are cast.
Yes an MEC Chair candidate can very much vote for themselves. You clearly have no idea how our association operates, or any knowledge of the ACPA constitution. The only thing a current MEC Chair can not do, if they are running again, is Chair the meeting. They get a vote, just like everyone else and their vote can be for themselves.

Thankfully MM left and we are all better off for it. Come spring time if he was still around and running again, I'm sure if it was a 5/5 tie he would have had no problem voting for himself as King.
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Ratherbe
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Ratherbe »

I stand corrected. You’re right a MEC Chair candidate can vote for himself. The Constitution doesn’t prevent this nor does Robert’s Rules of Order. However, RRO offers caution in voting where there is a personal interest. I just can’t believe anyone would vote for themselves and I have never heard of it happening in the past.

These have been weird times, hopefully they’re coming to an end.
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imjustlurking
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by imjustlurking »

Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?

Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

I think the concept of "safety in numbers" and the opportunity to bring almost every significantly sized 705 operation under one roof would/could/should be extremely appealing. It's been discussed; pontificated many, many time on this very site how Canadian pilots need to be one cohesive entity, isn't now the chance.

Isn't this the chance to set the bar higher, not the continuous lowering that has plagued Canadian aviation historically.
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Hangry
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by Hangry »

imjustlurking wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:30 am Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?

Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.
Again. And again. I saw how ALPA helped the WJ pilot group when Swoop was created. No thanks!

It’s the people. Not the banner.

WJ pilots are treated better than AC pilots?

You’ll forgive me if I find an Encore pilot telling me how bad I have it laughable.
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rudder
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by rudder »

Hangry wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:20 am
It’s the people. Not the banner.
Proably true. But also the representational structure, resources, experience, and the ability to manage situations both adverse and advantageous.

Just take a look at the latest Morningstar contract (ALPA). Product of arbitration. Starting pay that should embarrass AC (and others). Solid work rules and overtime premiums. Great non-taxable benefits (per diem/uniform). Pension still weak.

You have to know how to set the rules of engagement. Then you need to know how to maximize return within those rules.

Seems that the Morningstar pilots figured it out.
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GTFA
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by GTFA »

Hangry wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:20 am
imjustlurking wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:30 am Why does it seem like every Air Canada pilot is afraid of ALPA?

Take a look at the airlines in Canada that are represented by ALPA. Do you see how the pilots are being treated better than you?
Even CargoJet pilots are finally able to breathe now that they have a union that is advocating for the pilots and not the company.
Again. And again. I saw how ALPA helped the WJ pilot group when Swoop was created. No thanks!
It’s the people. Not the banner.
WJ pilots are treated better than AC pilots?
You’ll forgive me if I find an Encore pilot telling me how bad I have it laughable.
For the gajillionth time:
This was/is not an ALPA problem. This is a WJ pilots problem. ALPA provides the structure, the members provide the behaviour.
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altiplano
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Re: ACPA MEC

Post by altiplano »

<sarcasm font>

What?

Effective governance?

Comprehensive contract and negots support?

World wide expertise for direct member assistance?

Why would I want that?

Instead I've got guys that are best friends that go on date nights with management and even go join them across the table from time to time... I've got LRD that says we should never fight because we'll never win from his association paid Toronto condo... that's the authentic representation I'm looking for... I've got a contract and pay rates that have been pushing the bar lower for over a decade... I've got a worse lifestyle, a worse paycheque, and worse prospects than those before me... I work more, pay for more of my benefits,have seniority bypassed regularly, equipment bids and RIRs gerrymandered, and have multiple pay scales to try to sort out and promises of more lower scales to come!

</sarcasm font>

Get fuckin with it and open your eyes about where we are, where we were, and where we were headed... it's an embarrassment.

You want to compare a first contract at an LCC with a 85 year market leader, network, global alliance legacy airline? WTF? wake up.

I like to compare what ALPA has done for the membership at our major JV, ++, codeshare, alliance partner whose market we are a major player in and whose passengers we routinely carry. ie. United. Looks like ALPA has done right by them.

Or maybe we should just hire the United or Delta NC to come up and do a contract for us... I'd be happy with that as a start... Or should we send in the guy again that got the least votes in the most recent election? Maybe he can make best fit for blockholders too?
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