Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

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mijbil
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by mijbil »

rudder wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:04 pm Once again - the regulatory requirement is greater than 24 months from EXPIRY of PPC. If you are renewing annually, it is 36 months from last PPC. If renewing semi-annually it is 30 months from last PPC.
I was going back and forth with another WG guy about the timeline for a full initial. The CARs are such fun. I found here it references 24 months (I think I read it right) for the PPC. I did my sim PPC on 02 Oct 2019 and my line check 10 Nov 2019 (new hire from 2019). I expire 01 Nov if I read it right. Since I'm waaaaay down on the list it probably doesn't matter since I don't think that they will clear the training backlog in time, but if it's 30 or 36 months then maybe I can avoid a full initial. Where did you find the 30 and 36 months reference? I saw reference to 30 and 36 months in Part VI but I think this one applies. Happy to be proven wrong and maybe avoid an initial.......unless we run it in MIA or Europe!


Validity Period
705.113 (1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), the validity period of a line check and of the training referred to in section 705.124 expires on the first day of the thirteenth month following the month in which the check or training was completed.

(2) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), the validity period of a pilot proficiency check expires

(a) on the first day of the seventh month following the month in which the check was completed;

(b) on the first day of the thirteenth month following the month in which the check was completed, where the pilot successfully completes the six-month recurrency training that has been approved by the Minister, in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards, as a substitute for the pilot proficiency check and that is identified in the company operations manual; or

(c) at the end of the validation period, where the air operator has an operations specification authorizing an advanced qualification program in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards and the pilot completes a proficiency evaluation within the evaluation period authorized for the air operator in the operations specification.

(3) The validity period of a flight dispatcher competency check expires on the first day of the thirteenth month following the month in which the check was completed.

(4) Where a pilot proficiency check, a flight dispatcher competency check, a line check or training is renewed within the last 90 days of its validity period, its validity period is extended by six or 12 months, as appropriate.

(5) The Minister may extend the validity period of a pilot proficiency check, a flight dispatcher competency check, a line check or any training by up to 60 days where the Minister is of the opinion that aviation safety is not likely to be affected.

(6) Subject to subsection (7), where the validity period of a pilot proficiency check, a line check, or annual or semi-annual training has been expired for 24 months or more, the person shall requalify by meeting the training requirements specified in the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(7) Where the validity period of a flight dispatcher competency check or annual training has been expired for 12 months or more, the person shall requalify by meeting the training requirements specified in the Commercial Air Service Standards.
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rudder
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by rudder »

6) Subject to subsection (7), where the validity period of a pilot proficiency check, a line check, or annual or semi-annual training has been expired for 24 months or more, the person shall requalify by meeting the training requirements specified in the Commercial Air Service Standards.

Add 24 months to the EXPIRY of the event.

Some carriers are on 12 month PPC cycles due to approved training syllabus (TRN/LOFT), some are on 6 month, and some are on AQP.

So, I believe that the answer is carrier AND pilot specific. Could be 30 months. Could be 36 months. Not written in the CAR’s anywhere. It is just a math exercise.
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boeingboy
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by boeingboy »

I'm not too worried. There will be a domestic program of some description. By the time June rolls around - there will be a lot more people vaccinated and I'm sure we will be up and running something. A lot of people right now are ignoring orders anyways so I think the traffic is definately there. Bookings for the winter are through the roof. Groups, weddings, and families. Management is putting the need for 35 - 40 planes this winter, while I believe the number will be more like 20-25. In any case - they are already talking to TUI again as the need will most likely exceed the core fleet of 14. We may be short a few crews by the start of the winter program - but everyone should be back by Xmas. We still need to reactivate part of the fleet and at least 1 is now down for a while needing repair. We are also still doing the farm contracts and some are running into the summer. All of that may have something to do with the delay in the summer program.

It's hard for any company to plan right now. Things are picking up but are still very fluid. You don't want to be caught with to few airplanes and you don't want too many.
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DHC-1 Jockey
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

boeingboy wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:04 pm Bookings for the winter are through the roof.
I think it's a lot easier to book now and hope for the best. With the new cancellation policy, any trip cancelled 25 days or more before departure will receive a "Full refund in original form of payment." So, essentially there's no risk to booking a trip now when you can just cancel it later if COVID throws a wrinkle into the plan. All of these bookings could simply evaporate if things like the hotel quarantine isn't sorted out by the fall and winter.

That's why I believe that while vacation bookings are increasing, for now they're just "phantom" bookings just to secure a seat that may or may not be used... people can decide to cancel just as quick if things don't improve. They're only "real" bookings once the passengers are on on the hook for the money, whether they travel or not.
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haironfire
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by haironfire »

I will start by saying I have no vested interest in either party currently, but in the future who knows these days? I do not mean this in any negative way, only an observation from the cheap seats.

Our industry is very raw meat right now, and there is a lot of play going on in boardrooms (with masks on) feasting on other's wounds, or at least trying to. A big game play. There will be a lot of maneuvering, like a horse race.

I used to fly C-GMYH. Look it up. Skyservice Airlines flying Sunwing passengers. I know Mark Williams, since I had him in the jumpseat YYZ-CUN while his family was in the back. We talked the whole way, including during takeoff and landing. (Just kidding).. A very nice, energetic, smart business man. This will be above his level. ( BTW, I also had Fred Cromer, head of Bombardier Commercial at the time, in jumpseat for landing Bombardier 505 in YMX on 1st CSeries pax flight). Where is he now?

Who came first, the tour operator, or the airline? Who will go out last? It won't be the airline.

For all those Sunwing Airline Employees I would be very focused in the rearview mirror. Watch out for Flair, (and personally I think ONEX is sniffing around as well)? Flair ....... Currently expanding, ultra low cost, got all the sim time booked, current pilots, same type and brand new efficient planes.

They could slide right in under your feet.

I could be wrong, and I have many times with women, but not planes.
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Last edited by haironfire on Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GoHomeLeg
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by GoHomeLeg »

haironfire wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:37 pm I will start by saying I have no vested interest in either party currently, but in the future who knows these days? I do not mean this any negative way, only an observation from the cheap seats.

Our industry is very raw meat right now and there is a lot of play going on in boardrooms (with masks on) feasting on other's wounds, or at least trying to. A big game play. There will be a lot of maneuvering, like a horse race.

I used to fly C-GMYH. Look it up. Skyservice Airlines flying Sunwing passengers. I know Mark Williams, since I had him in the jumpseat YYZ-CUN while his family was in the back. We talked the whole way, including during takeoff and landing. (Just kidding).. A very nice, energetic, smart business man. This will be above his level.

Who came first, the tour operator, or the airline? Who will go out last? It won't be the airline.

For all those Sunwing Airline Employees I would be very focused in the rearview mirror. Watch out for Flair. Currently expanding, ultra low cost, got all the sim time booked, current pilots, new efficient planes.

They could slide right in under your feet.

I could be wrong, and I have many times with women, but not planes.

Sunwing also has new efficient aircraft. We have six MAXs with more to come in the following years with some being dry and wet leases from TUI. Why would Sunwing Travel group hire another airline to do all of it's flying when it has its own? There's a reason it has its own. Sunwing's Canada operation during normal times as way to many customers than seat available at other carried. We only use other carries when we test out a new market by buying 20-30 seats per week for example because there's not enough people to justify an entire aircraft and crew. Sunwing Airlines is not designed to make money. It's designed to cut cost buy not having pay hundreds of millions to other airlines to fly our customers. Contracting a handful of airlines to do all our lift is complicated and unreliable. Canjet and SkyService didn't work for a reason. Why would Flair do it? Flair is going after the Wizair/EasyJet model of flying their own as a schedule ULCC.

Sunwing Airlines and Nexus buses down south provide in-house transportation to Sunwing owed and operated resorts managed under Blues Diamond brands and other resorts book through Sunwing Vacation, Signature Vacation, Selloff Vacation. Sunwing and TUI Group are very unique in their vertically integrated business.
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haironfire
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by haironfire »

I hope you are right. But I would not feel protected by vertically integrated. Look at Transat. Have you ever considered they could sever the airline from the tour operator to save costs?

And I won't even mention your asinine training department that cost the tour operator very big bucks for no reason. I am sure they want to dump that shit? (Oh I know things behind the scenes on the review of failure rates so the trainers get overtime. I slap your back, you slap mine).

I was at C3 and Skyservice. The Charter Market is cutthroat. Cheapest wins. Just when things are good for you, the bottom feeder slithers in and steals your food. Sunwing was a bottom feeder to Skyservice at the time. All I am saying is beware. I will not get into any arguments, just trying to raise awareness of the past history and focus on the future.
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boeingboy
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by boeingboy »

I hope you are right. But I would not feel protected by vertically integrated. Look at Transat. Have you ever considered they could sever the airline from the tour operator to save costs?

And I won't even mention your asinine training department that cost the tour operator very big bucks for no reason. I am sure they want to dump that shit? (Oh I know things behind the scenes on the review of failure rates so the trainers get overtime. I slap your back, you slap mine).

I was at C3 and Skyservice. The Charter Market is cutthroat. Cheapest wins. Just when things are good for you, the bottom feeder slithers in and steals your food. Sunwing was a bottom feeder to Skyservice at the time. All I am saying is beware. I will not get into any arguments, just trying to raise awareness of the past history and focus on the future.
The past is the past and you clearly have no idea what your talking about. PS - Transat is similar - but not the same. There are some pretty big differences. Thanks for your concern - be on your way....
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boeingboy
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by boeingboy »

I think it's a lot easier to book now and hope for the best. With the new cancellation policy, any trip cancelled 25 days or more before departure will receive a "Full refund in original form of payment." So, essentially there's no risk to booking a trip now when you can just cancel it later if COVID throws a wrinkle into the plan. All of these bookings could simply evaporate if things like the hotel quarantine isn't sorted out by the fall and winter.

That's why I believe that while vacation bookings are increasing, for now they're just "phantom" bookings just to secure a seat that may or may not be used... people can decide to cancel just as quick if things don't improve. They're only "real" bookings once the passengers are on on the hook for the money, whether they travel or not.
Of course - what you say has merit, but that is true of any airline these days. Remember the last town hall? You could hear a pin drop in the call center...we had nothing coming in. All of a sudden - what a week or two later - it was like someone turned on a light switch. The shots started going in arms and suddenly they were overwhelmed with calls and bookings. Yes - they could disappear just as fast - but I think everyone is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, even if not everyone is vaccinated by Sept like our "beloved" leader says will happen, enough should be done that travel will not be an issue. As soon as the US border opens - that will be it.

Anything can happen - but I will bet good money that quite a bit will be happening by xmas, and we are (and should) be planning for it.
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haironfire
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by haironfire »

I like your positive outlook boeingboy. I hope it works out and everyone gets back to work very soon.
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fruz
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by fruz »

haironfire wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:37 pm I will start by saying I have no vested interest in either party currently, but in the future who knows these days? I do not mean this in any negative way, only an observation from the cheap seats.

Our industry is very raw meat right now, and there is a lot of play going on in boardrooms (with masks on) feasting on other's wounds, or at least trying to. A big game play. There will be a lot of maneuvering, like a horse race.

I used to fly C-GMYH. Look it up. Skyservice Airlines flying Sunwing passengers. I know Mark Williams, since I had him in the jumpseat YYZ-CUN while his family was in the back. We talked the whole way, including during takeoff and landing. (Just kidding).. A very nice, energetic, smart business man. This will be above his level. ( BTW, I also had Fred Cromer, head of Bombardier Commercial at the time, in jumpseat for landing Bombardier 505 in YMX on 1st CSeries pax flight). Where is he now?

Who came first, the tour operator, or the airline? Who will go out last? It won't be the airline.

For all those Sunwing Airline Employees I would be very focused in the rearview mirror. Watch out for Flair, (and personally I think ONEX is sniffing around as well)? Flair ....... Currently expanding, ultra low cost, got all the sim time booked, current pilots, same type and brand new efficient planes.

They could slide right in under your feet.

I could be wrong, and I have many times with women, but not planes.
One thing to bare in mind also is that Sunwing borrowed from the government LEEFF program. One of conditions of this loan which is provided on the fact sheet is that companies seeking support must commit to minimizing the loss of employment and sustaining their domestic business activities, and must demonstrate that funding under LEEFF forms part of their overall plan to return to financial stability.

Dumping their airline and airline employees to use another company could have them breaching the terms and conditions of their loan agreement. That would be a costly oversight for them.

Sunwing will return.
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RILEY
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by RILEY »

boeingboy wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:04 pm I'm not too worried. There will be a domestic program of some description. By the time June rolls around - there will be a lot more people vaccinated and I'm sure we will be up and running something. A lot of people right now are ignoring orders anyways so I think the traffic is definately there. Bookings for the winter are through the roof. Groups, weddings, and families. Management is putting the need for 35 - 40 planes this winter, while I believe the number will be more like 20-25. In any case - they are already talking to TUI again as the need will most likely exceed the core fleet of 14. We may be short a few crews by the start of the winter program - but everyone should be back by Xmas. We still need to reactivate part of the fleet and at least 1 is now down for a while needing repair. We are also still doing the farm contracts and some are running into the summer. All of that may have something to do with the delay in the summer program.

It's hard for any company to plan right now. Things are picking up but are still very fluid. You don't want to be caught with to few airplanes and you don't want too many.
If the US is any indication, when this all turns around it’ll turn around quickly. Sunny days ahead
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by whipline »

Haironfire. Mark W was a skyservice employee until he brokered a deal for Skyservice to do sunwing flying on the 1 757 you speak of. RG wasn’t happy. He knew what was about to happen.

How was sunwing a bottom feeder? The reason sky no longer exists the model doesn’t work. To many hands in one basket with low margins. I was making more as a Sunwing pilot then Sky pilots when they went TU.

Flair is getting free sim but it’s in the USA. There’s tons of available 737ng/max sim available in Canada. Not an issue. Thank the closed borders. The flair pilot contract is pretty close to the cut we just took. No cost advantage.

If this summers a wash do you think flair will have 13 planes flying around empty? Do you think WJ/AC aren’t going to keep their customers? Tough hill to climb.

I see WG as a 20-30 plane fleet for winter with TUI/TS adding extra lift. If the hunters don’t want the airline it would have been shed a year ago.

PS your not the only one who’s had to climb out of a few carcasses...sadly.
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rudder
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by rudder »

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boeingboy
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by boeingboy »

Not a surprise....the domestic program is never very big and given that we are almost halfway through it already - there's not much point. The southern flight's start the end of July and continue through till the start of the winter program in Oct, with the TFW returns starting in Sept. Pilots have already been recalled and training is underway. Planes are being reactivated and imports are being planned. All 6 Max aircraft should be running the southern routes first, with the 2 newest aircraft flying since they were delivered in Feb, and the others going through their C checks and other heavy maintenance.

It looks to be a busy winter.
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seriousflyer
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by seriousflyer »

Is this airline back up and running yet ?
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by fruz »

They are, but at a very reduced amount currently. The bulk of Sunwing's flying is in the winter, starting November. Expect them to have a fairly busy winter season, should there be few or no restrictions.
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by boeingboy »

Is this airline back up and running yet ?
Yes we are.
Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon out of Toronto and Montreal to sun destinations, and we are adding new destionations ahead of schedual due to demand. Aircraft being imported for the winter, bookings way up and full flights. It does look to be a good winter season.

Not to mention we are right now, doing a lot of domestic charter work the last month or 2.
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co-joe
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by co-joe »

I hear and see WG flights out of the western bases finally. The YVR plane was at a gate today, not just mothballed on the international side, heard flights going into YYC last night. How are you guys doing? Seems like you are back flying. Hopefully some decent crew recall numbers.
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ant_321
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Re: Sunwing Cancels All Flights Through June 23

Post by ant_321 »

co-joe wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:52 pm I hear and see WG flights out of the western bases finally. The YVR plane was at a gate today, not just mothballed on the international side, heard flights going into YYC last night. How are you guys doing? Seems like you are back flying. Hopefully some decent crew recall numbers.
Things are starting to move. The latest recall I know was about #330 out of about 450 on the seniority list. I’m not sure the actual number of pilots recalled, there are people holding out at other jobs, waiting for the reduced mmg to go up, waiting to hold captain, unvaccinated, etc.
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