ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 5:46 am
Not sure why commuters deserve priority. They (me) made a choice not to live where they work. Why should that be rewarded? Some flights have 10+ commuters on them, I think it would be grossly unfair for a person traveling on vacation to be bumped on flight after flight by commuters.
Nailed it.
Far too much negotiating capital has been used over the years for the benefit of commuters.
Totally agree here. I understand that they have more on their plate when it comes to planning but work is work. You gotta get to it if you wanna get paid. Driving or flying or taking a cab... it’s a cost on time for everyone.
It’s really crazy how people play this current system of booking through flights to get ahead of others and earlier flights on high frequency routes to meet check in requirement knowing it’s full or oversold only to bump to a higher priority on the next flight. Seniority solves those.
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:50 pm
Maybe it's just because I'm still relatively green, but I favour check-in based priority. I wouldn't be opposed to commuters getting priority boosts.
The problem with check-in priority is that it favours the office worker. If you are at work as flight crew, you may be in a country where you don't get access to the internet during a turn, or at 40,000 feet operating the aircraft when it is time to check in for your flight. There are very specific rules against using personal electronic devices to do things like check-in for flights during times of operating the flight that crews have to break, if that's even an option, so that they can check in while the office worker clicks away on the check-in button without issue.
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ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 5:46 am
Not sure why commuters deserve priority. They (me) made a choice not to live where they work. Why should that be rewarded? Some flights have 10+ commuters on them, I think it would be grossly unfair for a person traveling on vacation to be bumped on flight after flight by commuters.
Nailed it.
Far too much negotiating capital has been used over the years for the benefit of commuters.
Totally agree here. I understand that they have more on their plate when it comes to planning but work is work. You gotta get to it if you wanna get paid. Driving or flying or taking a cab... it’s a cost on time for everyone.
It’s really crazy how people play this current system of booking through flights to get ahead of others and earlier flights on high frequency routes to meet check in requirement knowing it’s full or oversold only to bump to a higher priority on the next flight. Seniority solves those.
I'm sorry, but it's not a choice. If the company wants me to live in Toronto or Vancouver, they have to pay Toronto or Vancouver wages and not Calgary wages. At some point, you can't double the size of your mortgage and effectively absorb those costs. That's a very narrow minded viewpoint that fails to recognize that a lot of people were hired because they wouldn't have to move to Toronto. The company changed the rules of the game, they have to accept that it will take many years to organically grow the bases they decided to create.
---------- ADS -----------
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 5:46 am
Not sure why commuters deserve priority. They (me) made a choice not to live where they work. Why should that be rewarded? Some flights have 10+ commuters on them, I think it would be grossly unfair for a person traveling on vacation to be bumped on flight after flight by commuters.
Nailed it.
Far too much negotiating capital has been used over the years for the benefit of commuters.
Totally agree here. I understand that they have more on their plate when it comes to planning but work is work. You gotta get to it if you wanna get paid. Driving or flying or taking a cab... it’s a cost on time for everyone.
It’s really crazy how people play this current system of booking through flights to get ahead of others and earlier flights on high frequency routes to meet check in requirement knowing it’s full or oversold only to bump to a higher priority on the next flight. Seniority solves those.
Exactly.
The time has come to look at seniority for travel. Don't be guilted by those who claim that if your flight is cancelled because they (the commuter) couldn't make it to work, you're SOL for your vacation standby travel. With the advent of reserve, that issue (for the most part) has been negated.
Is this actually a problem in normal times when there are a lot of flights? Commuters are only going to a few specific places. Vacationers are generally going somewhere different. Not everyone can choose to live in their base. Frankly WJ paystubs don't allow for it.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 5:46 am
Not sure why commuters deserve priority. They (me) made a choice not to live where they work. Why should that be rewarded? Some flights have 10+ commuters on them, I think it would be grossly unfair for a person traveling on vacation to be bumped on flight after flight by commuters.
Usually people with this opinion bought their house in yyz or yvr for 500 k and the rest of us should just pony up 2 million now for the same house or pay 4k a month for a bachelor pad with a murphy bed in a bad neighborhood and just accept our lot in life. You may as well just say "let them eat cake".
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 7:35 pm
Time for Seniority Travel....get over yourselves this damn union mentality that is taking over! The top get everything screw everybody else.
Many hours a spent pontificating on the need to "change & advance" this industry. Many who expound on this need would defend to their death one of its original forms of oppression, seniority. They would be the first to holler loud and long if any efforts where made to update, change or alter to this dinosaur of inequity. I agree that seniority is simple, straight forward and clear however it feeds the "have's" at the expense of the "have not's". It's a shame we can't come up with a better mousetrap this day in age. It's a travesty when someone with 25-30 years "invested" in a industry runs the risk of starting all over again thru no fault of their own. For an industry that preaches "standards" operationally but shuns it professionally the irony is palpable.
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Last edited by Loon-A-Tic on Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 7:35 pm
Time for Seniority Travel....get over yourselves this damn union mentality that is taking over! The top get everything screw everybody else.
You do realize Westjet has been one of the most "junior friendly" airlines in the entire industry, don't you?
Yes, and I benefited from this during my first 6 years....I want to ensure that pilots after me also get to benefit. WestJet was always known for the one team concept where all benefited. Now the union is here and some of the senior who benefited throughout their ‘junior’ time at WestJet want their cake and eat it too. I want to share some of the spoils. When I came I was able to get some Christmas’s off, had a little summer vacation and yes I have commuted to Calgary, to Toronto and now back to Calgary after being demoted/bumped down to Encore as a Captain. When I am recalled to WestJet I know it will be to Toronto initially until I can hold Calgary F/O, then back to Toronto when I upgrade. I am not moving my family every time I am awarded a new base as will not a thousand other commuters. We have pilots shuffled all over right now due to this pandemic. Commuting is a reality for 50% of our pilot group currently and they should take priority over vacationing WestJetters.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 11:05 am
Yes, and I benefited from this during my first 6 years....I want to ensure that pilots after me also get to benefit. WestJet was always known for the one team concept where all benefited. Now the union is here and some of the senior who benefited throughout their ‘junior’ time at WestJet want their cake and eat it too. I want to share some of the spoils. When I came I was able to get some Christmas’s off, had a little summer vacation and yes I have commuted to Calgary, to Toronto and now back to Calgary after being demoted/bumped down to Encore as a Captain. When I am recalled to WestJet I know it will be to Toronto initially until I can hold Calgary F/O, then back to Toronto when I upgrade. I am not moving my family every time I am awarded a new base as will not a thousand other commuters. We have pilots shuffled all over right now due to this pandemic. Commuting is a reality for 50% of our pilot group currently and they should take priority over vacationing WestJetters.
As all commuters should with their respective employer, now that's something worth negotiating for.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 11:05 am
Yes, and I benefited from this during my first 6 years....I want to ensure that pilots after me also get to benefit. WestJet was always known for the one team concept where all benefited. Now the union is here and some of the senior who benefited throughout their ‘junior’ time at WestJet want their cake and eat it too. I want to share some of the spoils. When I came I was able to get some Christmas’s off, had a little summer vacation and yes I have commuted to Calgary, to Toronto and now back to Calgary after being demoted/bumped down to Encore as a Captain. When I am recalled to WestJet I know it will be to Toronto initially until I can hold Calgary F/O, then back to Toronto when I upgrade. I am not moving my family every time I am awarded a new base as will not a thousand other commuters. We have pilots shuffled all over right now due to this pandemic. Commuting is a reality for 50% of our pilot group currently and they should take priority over vacationing WestJetters.
First off, thanks for the respectful response. It doesn't do anyone any good when the BS is dialed up into the redzone.
I'd like to pose few other questions for you. Since the inception of WJ, who do think has benefited more? Junior or senior segments of the pilot population? Which demographic has had the majority of the negotiating capital expended for its benefit? Please take into account everything. Ports, Flica, bases, scheduling, YOS, commuting, etc. I'm honestly curious to see what your perception is.
You may be surprised at how many common viewpoints you and I share. I invite you to look at my posting history to see where I stand on some issues.
I don't have an opinion on the seniority thing although it would have me near the top.of the list on most stay flights I take.
As far as getting priority for commuters, what does the pilot group have to give up in order for that to happen? We are in a "nothing for free" bargaining relationship with the company now so a commuting benefit, which only benefits part of the pilot group, will come at the expense of something else.
I'm a commuter most of the time, so I understand the pressures of commuting. Not sure why I should get priority over people traveling for another reason.
Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 6:43 pm
I don't have an opinion on the seniority thing although it would have me near the top.of the list on most stay flights I take.
As far as getting priority for commuters, what does the pilot group have to give up in order for that to happen? We are in a "nothing for free" bargaining relationship with the company now so a commuting benefit, which only benefits part of the pilot group, will come at the expense of something else.
I'm a commuter most of the time, so I understand the pressures of commuting. Not sure why I should get priority over people traveling for another reason.
As I'm not a commuter this has no "direct" impact on my quality of life. However to address the question of value to all lets consider the following. It may present the opportunity for home ownership much earlier given that most pilot bases are in high market value areas of the country. As for those further along in their career it could equally offer unique quality of life residential options later in life. I'm thinking semi-retirement to areas like the east coast where the cost of living is a bit lower. So yes the concept may have a bit broader appeal that expected, not everyone wants to live in the "hub" cities regardless of their seniority number
I'm not sure why it has to be an either/or situation. I am sure there could be a system that is better than either of the current alternatives if people wanted to sit down and talk about it. Don't forget, the pilots aren't the only commuters in the company.
I'm also not sure why something needs to be given up to prioritize commuters, we actually had that for a while and gave up nothing to get it. Then it was taken away because... well, no reason really, it just was.
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I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
Tolip wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 10:51 pm
Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas
I am a non-commuter who is currently on furlough who is advocating for active commuters.
