Competing Union
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Re: Competing Union
Bede,
I feel we are mostly on the same page. I feel that if a fellow pilot is using all of her sick days as a strategy, then, by definition and reason, maybe they should stay home. I’ve flown, as you have I’m sure, with the angry bitter person. It’s usually around contract negotiation time and the operation is way smoother if they stay home. It doesn’t bother me that they use this strategy, just show up in the right frame of mind.
Cheers
I feel we are mostly on the same page. I feel that if a fellow pilot is using all of her sick days as a strategy, then, by definition and reason, maybe they should stay home. I’ve flown, as you have I’m sure, with the angry bitter person. It’s usually around contract negotiation time and the operation is way smoother if they stay home. It doesn’t bother me that they use this strategy, just show up in the right frame of mind.
Cheers
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Re: Competing Union
Re: sick policy abuse. A unionized ICBC employee found out the hard way in April 2021 that calling in sick when not sick is a terminating offense:
Re: Competing Union
Ever hear of book smart vs street smart? Lol not my cup of tea. Wrong guy.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:17 amI have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.countdown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:31 pm If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.
The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?
Re: Competing Union
It’s only one word if you aren’t sick. It’s fraudulentALPApolicy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:39 pm Re: sick policy abuse. A unionized ICBC employee found out the hard way in April 2021 that calling in sick when not sick is a terminating offense:
Re: Competing Union
The reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:17 amI have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.countdown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:31 pm If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.
The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?
The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".
Re: Competing Union
You do realize that you contradicted yourself in your own post, right?countdown wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:05 pmThe reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:17 amI have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.countdown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:31 pm If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.
The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?
The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".
The pilot group did attempt to certify in-house prior to ALPA, it was called the WPPA and was actively campaigned against by the same individuals referred to as the old guard WJPA in my previous post with help from the company and their hired guns and of course Labourwatch. The fact that these same individuals are now promoting certifying an in-house union is so beyond hypocritical that it borders on the ludicrous.
Don't let your version of revisionist history get in the way of the facts though, that would be inconvenient.
Re: Competing Union
The WPPA was a group of individuals with a huge chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind, they were not even remotely a viable option. Their only focus was putting the screws to CB.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:20 amYou do realize that you contradicted yourself in your own post, right?countdown wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:05 pmThe reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:17 am
I have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.
The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?
The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".
The pilot group did attempt to certify in-house prior to ALPA, it was called the WPPA and was actively campaigned against by the same individuals referred to as the old guard WJPA in my previous post with help from the company and their hired guns and of course Labourwatch. The fact that these same individuals are now promoting certifying an in-house union is so beyond hypocritical that it borders on the ludicrous.
Don't let your version of revisionist history get in the way of the facts though, that would be inconvenient.
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Re: Competing Union
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Last edited by RightPlaceWrongTime on Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Competing Union
If that is what you truly believe was the aims and goals of the WPPA were you couldn't be more mistaken or ill-informed and revisionist history is the least of your problems.countdown wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:15 pmThe WPPA was a group of individuals with a huge chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind, they were not even remotely a viable option. Their only focus was putting the screws to CB.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:20 amYou do realize that you contradicted yourself in your own post, right?countdown wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:05 pm
The reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.
The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".
The pilot group did attempt to certify in-house prior to ALPA, it was called the WPPA and was actively campaigned against by the same individuals referred to as the old guard WJPA in my previous post with help from the company and their hired guns and of course Labourwatch. The fact that these same individuals are now promoting certifying an in-house union is so beyond hypocritical that it borders on the ludicrous.
Don't let your version of revisionist history get in the way of the facts though, that would be inconvenient.
Re: Competing Union
Well rightplacewrongtime will have his theory tested lol with the newly elected mec DK, SW and BL. Personally I have time for BL but that’s about it. The other two must have fell off that train with the giraffe as this will be a test of egos. Anyone see the official communication yet? I haven’t. Only heard second and third and forth hand. What was I saying about our communication? Ahhh never mind. We have AV Canada for official ALPA coms.
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Re: Competing Union
I do not see the UPW as the right way to go and it likely has less than wholesome motives. The best path forward for the pilots at WJ is the stick with ALPA and elect good representatives that will protect their interests.
This split that seems to have originated from the failure of the last MOA, highlights a big problem at WJ ALPA. The problem being that the younger pilots have poor representation and the focus right now seems to be on the high seniority pilots. Snap back at the expense of layoffs and such. Please no hate about this, at this point it is done and we can only look forward. I only ask for understanding about how it would feel to see high seniority pilots going back to full salary while you just lost your job. To build a strong union for the future it is very important to have empathy for all members of the pilot group whether they are still were they started, lost their left seat, got bumped down to encore, or are laid off. Also solidarity with the Encore pilot group is really important too, their jobs can not be viewed as a bump down safety net during contract negotiations. We must think of every Encore pilot are as a future WJ mainline pilot because that is truly what they are. Their is absolutely no such thing as a disposable job. If there is to be unity at ALPA low seniority pilots must feel like they have a voice and their interests are being looked out for. Important issues like raising the starting salary at WJ must be worked on as well and not just increasing the salary of the pilots in the last decade of their careers. Everyone must feel that ALPA is working for them in order for pilots to have any hope of a good contract in 2022 and we must start now to build unity. I feel this is the most important thing we can do for ourselves as pilots.
This split that seems to have originated from the failure of the last MOA, highlights a big problem at WJ ALPA. The problem being that the younger pilots have poor representation and the focus right now seems to be on the high seniority pilots. Snap back at the expense of layoffs and such. Please no hate about this, at this point it is done and we can only look forward. I only ask for understanding about how it would feel to see high seniority pilots going back to full salary while you just lost your job. To build a strong union for the future it is very important to have empathy for all members of the pilot group whether they are still were they started, lost their left seat, got bumped down to encore, or are laid off. Also solidarity with the Encore pilot group is really important too, their jobs can not be viewed as a bump down safety net during contract negotiations. We must think of every Encore pilot are as a future WJ mainline pilot because that is truly what they are. Their is absolutely no such thing as a disposable job. If there is to be unity at ALPA low seniority pilots must feel like they have a voice and their interests are being looked out for. Important issues like raising the starting salary at WJ must be worked on as well and not just increasing the salary of the pilots in the last decade of their careers. Everyone must feel that ALPA is working for them in order for pilots to have any hope of a good contract in 2022 and we must start now to build unity. I feel this is the most important thing we can do for ourselves as pilots.
Last edited by northofanything on Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Competing Union
Can you blame them? ALPA has proven over and over again, with many airlines, that it has very little power. Most of the union team memebers are in it for themselves. One only has to look at Calm Air and how "fantastic" things are there. Just one of the examples where unions did very little.
Re: Competing Union
I earn an extra $300k over 10 years due to ALPA securing years of service pay for me.
And what do they get in return "for themselves"? Union reps are all volunteers. They get a little bit of flight relief, but they work way harder than what they get.
Re: Competing Union
Oh come on. Really? You're a smart man. I know that you know the answer.
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Re: Competing Union
I have been laid off for 16 months now and have had steady money coming in as a direct result of ALPA negotiations (and a federal government who is trying to buy my vote).Julian.B wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:26 am Can you blame them? ALPA has proven over and over again, with many airlines, that it has very little power. Most of the union team memebers are in it for themselves. One only has to look at Calm Air and how "fantastic" things are there. Just one of the examples where unions did very little.
I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience with ALPA, but I can guarantee you that your negative feelings toward them are not shared by all.
Re: Competing Union
The highest paid 705 turboprop guys in the country?Julian.B wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:26 am Can you blame them? ALPA has proven over and over again, with many airlines, that it has very little power. Most of the union team memebers are in it for themselves. One only has to look at Calm Air and how "fantastic" things are there. Just one of the examples where unions did very little.
Re: Competing Union
Before you question your ‘representation’, perhaps ask this question - “have I ever represented pilots?”. Or, “have I ever negotiated for pilots?”.
If the answer is ‘no’ then tread carefully as you have never walked in their shoes.
Is every rep a quality human being? Honourable? Honest? Objective? No. But as a group they should be. Bad apples get weeded out, or at least their opinions do.
Pilots are by nature ego-centric and self centred. Control freaks. That makes them the hardest to represent.
Changing the shingle on the door rarely changes the result unless the institution itself is rotten to the core (and there are a few).
If the answer is ‘no’ then tread carefully as you have never walked in their shoes.
Is every rep a quality human being? Honourable? Honest? Objective? No. But as a group they should be. Bad apples get weeded out, or at least their opinions do.
Pilots are by nature ego-centric and self centred. Control freaks. That makes them the hardest to represent.
Changing the shingle on the door rarely changes the result unless the institution itself is rotten to the core (and there are a few).
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Re: Competing Union
Most of us also either forget or don't realize that our reps sign NDAs that prevent them from talking about some of the items they're negotiating.rudder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:27 pm Before you question your ‘representation’, perhaps ask this question - “have I ever represented pilots?”. Or, “have I ever negotiated for pilots?”.
If the answer is ‘no’ then tread carefully as you have never walked in their shoes.
Is every rep a quality human being? Honourable? Honest? Objective? No. But as a group they should be. Bad apples get weeded out, or at least their opinions do.
Pilots are by nature ego-centric and self centred. Control freaks. That makes them the hardest to represent.
Changing the shingle on the door rarely changes the result unless the institution itself is rotten to the core (and there are a few).
Re: Competing Union
It’s going to bite the senior pilots at some point. Next time there is a vote on increasing senior pilots pay or getting more vacation, the junior pilots who were laid off or bumped down will not vote yes. Senior pilots got a win here but for the junior pilots I have talked to there will never be a yes vote for increasing senior pilot pay. Let’s be honest now all my friends who are junior at westket won’t be Capt for 13-15 years! Never mind pilots on layoff