Vaccinated people told not to travel in Spain and Russia

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

It's hard to imagine there have ever existed in the history of medicine any substances more highly researched than the various COVID19 vaccines at present. The entire world is doing nothing else but research, at present.

The smallpox vaccine and the Bomb might have something to say about that.

A direct comparison of modern research methods to that of the smallpox and Manhattan Project era isn't really valid at all.

I know that I was being facetious.

Which leads to the second point, this idea that "less than a year's research" has been done on these vaccines. What ignorant nonsense. To calculate the man-years of R&D of something you have to consider the total number of people working on something at any one time, the level of expertise being brought to bear, the financial resources being deployed to enable the latest, most advanced research techniques to proceed at the highest speed possible, and so on. It isn't like "10 months ago there was no vaccine, now there is, so that's a vaccine with 10 months of research". Good god.

The amount of sheer resources poured into these vaccines dwarfs any other pharmaceutical intervention in history. Period. Multiple teams of the top professionals in the fields of medicine, biology, virology, immunology, working on multiple types of vaccinations simultaneously, with limitless financial backing.

Agreed, 100%. We are witnessing the single greatest human achievement of all time, if you ask me. Also, possibly, our single greatest blunder... but I'm an optimist.

['97 Tercel]

What happened to the murder hornets??

I feel like we forgot about the murder hornets. I'm gonna stay inside until they sort that out..

[pecessix]

spoiler alert: vaccination numbers go up = infection and mortality rates go down. Same as every vaccine in history.

That is not true, it's just a common belief about vaccines...
https://vaccinechoicecanada.com/wp-cont ... msawin.pdf
https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpre ... istics.pdf

[shimmydampner]

Which leads to the second point, this idea that "less than a year's research" has been done on these vaccines. What ignorant nonsense. To calculate the man-years of R&D of something you have to consider the total number of people working on something at any one time, the level of expertise being brought to bear, the financial resources being deployed to enable the latest, most advanced research techniques to proceed at the highest speed possible, and so on. It isn't like "10 months ago there was no vaccine, now there is, so that's a vaccine with 10 months of research". Good god.

Very true. And yes, mRNA backed have been around for decades. Unfortunately though, only in the last 6 months or so have we been made aware of the 1 in 26000 risk of VIPIT to young healthy adults, or the 1 in 5000 risk of myocarditis to young healthy men. So clearly there was either a lack of data, or that data was being withheld from the general population. I don't believe in a vaccine conspiracy, so I tend to believe that there was a lack of data. Either way, I'm sure the young healthy people who have been negatively affected by these side effects would have preferred to know those risks so they could have made a fully informed decision before taking the vaccine for a virus that presents almost no danger to them at all.

It's like we're racing backwards from the Enlightenment to only trust superstition and gossip.

That has certainly been the case since the very beginning of the pandemic.

[photofly]

spoiler alert: vaccination numbers go up = infection and mortality rates go down. Same as every vaccine in history.

That is not true, it's just a common belief about vaccines...
https://vaccinechoicecanada.com/wp-cont ... msawin.pdf
https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpre ... istics.pdf

And airplanes fly on skyhooks. I found it all explained in a PowerPoint presentation I found on the internet.

[Tolip]

It's hard to imagine there have ever existed in the history of medicine any substances more highly researched than the various COVID19 vaccines at present. The entire world is doing nothing else but research, at present.

The smallpox vaccine and the Bomb might have something to say about that.

A direct comparison of modern research methods to that of the smallpox and Manhattan Project era isn't really valid at all. Original "smallpox research" consisted of infecting people with cowpox to stimulate an immune response. Things have come a little ways since then. They mapped the genome of Covid-19 in less than 48 hours. Production of mRNA vaccines doesn't even need the actual live virus.

Which leads to the second point, this idea that "less than a year's research" has been done on these vaccines. What ignorant nonsense. To calculate the man-years of R&D of something you have to consider the total number of people working on something at any one time, the level of expertise being brought to bear, the financial resources being deployed to enable the latest, most advanced research techniques to proceed at the highest speed possible, and so on. It isn't like "10 months ago there was no vaccine, now there is, so that's a vaccine with 10 months of research". Good god.

The amount of sheer resources poured into these vaccines dwarfs any other pharmaceutical intervention in history. Period. Multiple teams of the top professionals in the fields of medicine, biology, virology, immunology, working on multiple types of vaccinations simultaneously, with limitless financial backing. Much of the tech was adopted from already-present flu vaccines. mRNA technology itself isn't "new", it's been around for over 30 years.

It's no miracle they developed something so "quickly", it would have been more miraculous for them not to have.

Sure, keep "waiting and seeing" but spoiler alert: vaccination numbers go up = infection and mortality rates go down. Same as every vaccine in history. I'm just curious, is there a number of day/months/years, or how many hundreds of millions or billions of people vaccinated with a positive outcome, that the people using this line have in mind where they'll decide it's good enough for them too?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/brazilian-town-experiment-shows-mass-vaccination-can-wipe-out-covid-19

And this was with the Chinese vaccine, and the crappier one at that. It's all about numbers, and even the lesser vax'es reduce them. What a shocker.

It's complete bullshit to claim previous vaccines are completely safe because they've been around longer. Small numbers of people have drastically bad reactions to vaccines all the time. And the Covid-19 vaccines have PLENTY of data to properly evaluate their safety and efficacy, "thanks" to the sheer numbers of both infected and vaccinated. The determination to cling to stats that show the side effects are statistically less than many commonly-taken drugs such as birth control pills, in the case of blood clots for example, is dishonestly alarmist. Context is everything: risk management is not risk elimination. I would have thought pilots, of all people, could grasp this basic distinction.

It's like we're racing backwards from the Enlightenment to only trust superstition and gossip. Where once we celebrated the achievements of humanity's best and brightest minds to solve medical disasters, now we're doubtful because, well, y'know /reasons. Huddled fearfully around our little glowing screens like we once did around fires in dirt huts. Amazing, really.

But hey I don't care. If vaccination becomes a requirement for employment, the doubters just open more opportunities for the rest of us.

When it comes to the effectiveness of this vaccine and it's short term effects your 100 percent right, with SO many people researching these vaccines, putting in so many man hours and working in conjunction with the WHOLE world 100% you can rest easy knowing that this vaccine has loads of trust worthy data out there.

But when it comes to LONG TERM side effects I have to disagree, because no amount of money or research or scientists will tell you what the long term side effects are. There is only ONE thing that can do that, which is the TEST OF TIME. Currently there are zero studies (either short or longterm) for pregnancy, or use in developing children. And even the recent change to allow for 12 to 16 year old to get the vaccine. That was a 3 to 6 month trial, no amount of research will tell them how those kids will respond to this in 10 plus years after their 10th booster shot, no doctor can say. Why? Because they dont have the data my friend.and as you said even the most well known vaccines with the longest studies still have very negative side effects. So how can you sit there and label it as the "opposite of enlightenment and gossip" to not want this vaccine yet. Just as the science during this pandemic has changed time and time again throughout, the same could be said for this vaccine. I acknowledge its extremely unlikely and it's probably totally safe. But I cannot know that for sure, and there for as a young and healthy person why should I want to get it. Literally not even .000001 percent of people my age group have died from covid. It's not superstitious to want to wait and see more data, it is wisdom.
Currently the longest time any individual has been vaccinated is like 9 months. When that gets to maybe 2 years and has full FDA approval; at that time a company can mandate it if they want to. But trying to force it on people this early on is simply wrong and unethical, and saying anything to the contrary is just propaganda playing tune to the current agenda to vaccinate everyone. I mean damn, they even want to start vaccinating 5 year olds as soon as august.. crazy stuff...

[photofly]

Out of curiosity, have their ever been any vaccines that have long term side effects which become apparent only after more than 12 months?

[Tolip]

Out of curiosity, have their ever been any vaccines that have long term side effects which become apparent only after more than 12 months?

Just think about how many long term side effects we have already found in just the last 6 months since December. Rare allergic reactions, VITT, myocarditis, Bells palsy and others. That is since it has been given emerg authorization. Imagine what they could find out with more time. I already know WAY more now then I did back in December. Waiting a bit longer is wise. Remember I said that with 2 years of data and full approval is what I believe most people are waiting for in order to feel safe getting it. Remember most vaccines take 10 plus years of safety data in order to be approved, so YES, they still find things after one year. That is pritty evident. I mean how many other medications that have been on market for many many years then get removed for MASSIVE safety risks. You see adds from the lawers on tv all the time

[photofly]

Out of curiosity, have their ever been any vaccines that have long term side effects which become apparent only after more than 12 months?

Just think about how many long term side effects we have already found in just the last 6 months since December. Rare allergic reactions, VITT, myocarditis, Bells palsy and others.

No more significant or likely than long term effects from all the other regular vaccines. And all of which were detected in the first 12 months.

I'll repeat the question, since you didn't address it.

Have there ever been any vaccines that have long term effects which became apparent only after 12 months? Clearly an answer to this question need and must not mention any COVID19 vaccine, none of which have been around for 12 months.

[Tolip]

Out of curiosity, have their ever been any vaccines that have long term side effects which become apparent only after more than 12 months?

Just think about how many long term side effects we have already found in just the last 6 months since December. Rare allergic reactions, VITT, myocarditis, Bells palsy and others.

No more significant or likely than long term effects from all the other regular vaccines. And all of which were detected in the first 12 months.

I'll repeat the question, since you didn't address it.

Have there ever been any vaccines that have long term effects which became apparent only after 12 months? Clearly an answer to this question need and must not mention any COVID19 vaccine, none of which have been around for 12 months.

Well considering that these MNRA vaccines are literally the first of their kind. No. I cannot answer you, because there is no answer. There are no other MNRA vaccines out there. So all we can do is be cautious and hope the long term safety is as good as the short term safety. Your trying to group all these vaccines together like they are the same thing, but they are not. And no, not all other vaccines produce the same conditions I mentioned above and not to the same extent. Because they are different vaccines.

But if you are looking for me to say they I have not categorically read an memorized every other vaccines study thru history and know what symptoms were discovered and at what time they were discovered. Your right. I cant answer that. I dont know. But I'm not afraid of a little research. I'll look into it.

[Tolip]

Out of curiosity, have their ever been any vaccines that have long term side effects which become apparent only after more than 12 months?

Just think about how many long term side effects we have already found in just the last 6 months since December. Rare allergic reactions, VITT, myocarditis, Bells palsy and others.

No more significant or likely than long term effects from all the other regular vaccines. And all of which were detected in the first 12 months.

I'll repeat the question, since you didn't address it.

Have there ever been any vaccines that have long term effects which became apparent only after 12 months? Clearly an answer to this question need and must not mention any COVID19 vaccine, none of which have been around for 12 months.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events

Ok. So a quick one minute google search lead me to this. Read it for yourself. In this they discuss different vaccines and how they have extremely different severity of side effects. And then they go into talking about VAERS.( vaccine adverse event reporting system) A division of the CDC who's Job it is to track long term side effects. And YES serious effects are still regularly found with vaccines after a one year mark. Even many many years down the line.

[photofly]

And YES serious effects are still regularly found with vaccines after a one year mark. Even many many years down the line.

I'm grateful for the link to the webpage, but I don't see anywhere on data to draw the conclusion that you write, here. Which vaccines have side effects that only became apparent after more than a year, and what are those side effects?

[Tolip]

And YES serious effects are still regularly found with vaccines after a one year mark. Even many many years down the line.

I'm grateful for the link to the webpage, but I don't see anywhere on data to draw the conclusion that you write, here. Which vaccines have side effects that only became apparent after more than a year, and what are those side effects?

Your making me do all the work here man. Just read it.

"VAERS has successfully identified several rare adverse events related to vaccination. Among them are

An intestinal problem after the first vaccine for rotavirus was introduced (the vaccine was withdrawn in 1999)Neurologic and gastrointestinal diseases related to yellow fever vaccine

Additionally, according to Plotkin et al., VAERS identified a need for further investigation of MMR association with a blood clotting disorder, encephalopathy after MMR, and syncope after immunization (Plotkin SA et al. Vaccines, 5th ed. Philadelphia: Saunders, 2008)."


These are with established vaccines that were around well over a year. And those are just to name afew. And again I just want to state MNRA vaccines are totally new. And these are the first ones ever approved. So that is a whole other issue.

[Tolip]

And YES serious effects are still regularly found with vaccines after a one year mark. Even many many years down the line.

I'm grateful for the link to the webpage, but I don't see anywhere on data to draw the conclusion that you write, here. Which vaccines have side effects that only became apparent after more than a year, and what are those side effects?

Your making me do all the work here man. Just read it.

"VAERS has successfully identified several rare adverse events related to vaccination. Among them are

An intestinal problem after the first vaccine for rotavirus was introduced (the vaccine was withdrawn in 1999)Neurologic and gastrointestinal diseases related to yellow fever vaccine

Additionally, according to Plotkin et al., VAERS identified a need for further investigation of MMR association with a blood clotting disorder, encephalopathy after MMR, and syncope after immunization (Plotkin SA et al. Vaccines, 5th ed. Philadelphia: Saunders, 2008)."


These are with established vaccines that were around well over a year. And those are just to name afew. And again I just want to state MNRA vaccines are totally new. And these are the first ones ever approved. So that is a whole other issue.

I feel like I am getting too doom.and gloom here. Like I said in my original post, the short term safety for these vaccines is great, and the efficacy is great. I am only trying to prove the point that with 6 to 9 months of data anyone that think they already have the complete picture here is fooling them selves. There is wisdom in being cautious. Once again. I am sure they are fine, and if you have the vaccine YOU will be fine. I am very optimistic they are totally safe, and will get one once they've been fully approved and and have more time on the market. I feel like before covid no one would EVER dream of taking a not fully approved new drug that was rushed to be approved. But these are different times and everyone must look at their own individual circumstances and see what's right. If your older, have health issues or live with people that do or of you work in health care. All good reasons to get vaccinated now. But not everyone is in this case and can afford to wait. So why can we not do that? And make our own minds up? AT LEAST for now. I hope my company doesnt force it on me.

[pecessix]

spoiler alert: vaccination numbers go up = infection and mortality rates go down. Same as every vaccine in history.

That is not true, it's just a common belief about vaccines...
https://vaccinechoicecanada.com/wp-cont ... msawin.pdf
https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpre ... istics.pdf

And airplanes fly on skyhooks. I found it all explained in a PowerPoint presentation I found on the internet.

Have you read both documents??

[shimmydampner]

Have there ever been any vaccines that have long term effects which became apparent only after 12 months?

Well that's kind of a loaded question.
Have there ever been any vaccines that have been administered by the hundreds of millions before they were approved?
Have there ever been any vaccines that ultimately, after normal testing and clinical trials did not gain approval because the side effects were too severe, or has every vaccine trial ever, ended successfully?

[photofly]

Some vaccine candidates have been not approved because they didn’t achieve 50% efficacy.

Folio pointed out one that was withdrawn.

I’m not sure why you say COVID-19 vaccines are not approved. They’re allowed to be injected into people by medical authorities on a worldwide basis. That meets my definition of approved.

[Bede]

That is not true, it's just a common belief about vaccines...
https://vaccinechoicecanada.com/wp-cont ... msawin.pdf
https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpre ... istics.pdf

And airplanes fly on skyhooks. I found it all explained in a PowerPoint presentation I found on the internet.

Have you read both documents??

I'll spare you the time.
Sentence 1: "the data they don't want you to see".
Sentence 2: information found in chapter 1 of any public health text book.

Now back to me debunking the moon landing and round earth theory.

[photofly]

This phenomena parallels the relationship
of microbes to disease, in which pathogenic
microorganisms act as nature's censors,
proliferating only when the human host's psycho-physiology has been imbalanced & weakened by factors such as stress, malnutrition, endo & environmental toxins.

Forgive me, Bede, I couldn’t help myself from looking. Minutes wasted that I will never have back.

[shimmydampner]

I’m not sure why you say COVID-19 vaccines are not approved. They’re allowed to be injected into people by medical authorities on a worldwide basis. That meets my definition of approved.

Well, personal, made-up definitions aside, it's really quite simple. I say that because it is a verifiable fact. They have not yet been approved by the FDA. They have not yet met the criteria for approval and are being administered under an emergency authorization. This information is readily available.
The fact of the matter is that approval processes are in place to protect the population at large from potential deleterious effects from drugs rushed to market before they can be proven safe. That process has been forgone in this scenario, ostensibly because governments feel that at the population level, the risk from unapproved vaccines is outweighed by the risk from the virus. You may agree, and that's fine. I'm not passing judgement on anyone's opinion. But if a person looks at the available epidemiological data and feels that the risk/reward equation on the individual level favours not taking the vaccine, I don't think there is anything wrong with that choice, in this scenario. In other words, I don't think it's crazy, or out of line to want your vaccines to have undergone the full scrutiny of the approval process before you allow yourself to be injected with it.