No Heroes here.

[rookiepilot]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanista ... 1?mod=e2tw

Afghanistan’s Falling Man: The 17-Year-Old Soccer Star Who Plunged From a U.S. Military Jet
Zaki Anwari saw no future as the Taliban streamed into Kabul. Viral images of his death horrified the world.

Powering through the scrum in a green tunic, 17-year-old Zaki Anwari made his way to the front and clambered onto the plane’s landing gear. As it accelerated past 120 miles an hour, he held tight.

Not far away, the U.S. C-17 loaded with equipment had landed on the runway on the military side of Hamid Karzai International Airport. A day earlier, another of the gunmetal gray planes had evacuated 823 Afghans who climbed through the cargo ramp to squeeze into the plane’s cavernous interior.

Now, hundreds more civilians—Zaki Anwari among them—had breached the airport perimeter and were congregating on the runway, hoping to do the same. Before the C-17 crew could unload their cargo of military equipment, the plane was swarmed by Afghans desperate to jump aboard.

In the melee, the C-17 pilot made a judgment: The plane needed to get out of Kabul, immediately, without taking on passengers.

“Faced with a rapidly deteriorating security situation around the aircraft, [they] decided to depart the airfield as quickly as possible,” an Air Force spokesman said.

It was the best of a bad set of available options, said Cedric Leighton, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel and founder of a security consulting firm: “You have to make a decision as a crew: Is the safety of my crew, plane, and cargo more important than the safety of those hanging onto my aircraft?” he said. “You don’t know who these folks are.”

[Big Pistons Forever]

"No Heroes Here "

My hope would be that nobody gets faced with the kind of shit sandwich that this crew had to deal with. Unfortunately that is not the case in the real world.

The commentary is ignorant and disrespectful of the people in uniform that get to clean up the mess so regular citizens don't have to.

BPF

Retired RCNR (37.5 years service)

[rookiepilot]

"No Heroes Here "

My hope would be that nobody gets faced with the kind of shit sandwich that this crew had to deal with. Unfortunately that is not the case in the real world.

The commentary is ignorant and disrespectful of the people in uniform that get to clean up the mess so regular citizens don't have to.

BPF

Retired RCNR (37.5 years service)

Which commentary? This story of a young man’s death?

Now countless deaths occurring as we speak? Do you endorse how this decision was planned and executed?

This is a sh—show.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t=business

[BigQ]

I mean... you wanted the US to continue to be embroiled in a perpetual war? Already millions of lives lost because of this so-called war on terror, what's another 30,000 yearly deaths?

Let the Afghanis rule themselves. The US retreated like idiots, leaving all that equipment over there and not keeping control of Bagram until the very end, but getting out of there was a good move.

99% of Afghanis want sharia law, and almost as many hated their "president".

[fish4life]

At 17 he should be preparing to defend his country from the taliban not run from it. The first C-17 that left with people inside blew me away that the aircraft had so many fighting age men inside and not just women and children

[photofly]

That's easy for you to say, sitting in your chair 10,000 km away from him. If you want men to fight, you owe them an organized army with honest and competent leaders to fight in. Your country has one of those. His doesn't.

[montado]

That's easy for you to say, sitting in your chair 10,000 km away from him. If you want men to fight, you owe them an organized army with honest and competent leaders to fight in. Your country has one of those. His doesn't.

Who owes them what?

[Old fella]

That's easy for you to say, sitting in your chair 10,000 km away from him. If you want men to fight, you owe them an organized army with honest and competent leaders to fight in. Your country has one of those. His doesn't.

Who owes them what?

More money spent on that 20 yr Afghanistan caper than the complete rebuild of Europe with the Marshall Plan. The US of A is correct in its assessment on continuation with the internet of extracting itself from that failed medieval state.

[photofly]

That's easy for you to say, sitting in your chair 10,000 km away from him. If you want men to fight, you owe them an organized army with honest and competent leaders to fight in. Your country has one of those. His doesn't.

Who owes them what?

Anyone who criticizes a young man for not taking up arms against the Taliban. Specifically, fish4life. Not anyone else.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

I considered the Canadian Forces in my teenage years. I couldn't figure out why anyone would willingly sign up to fight someone else's war and get treated like shit.

I'm sure if we were in the middle of WWII I would have a different opinion, but we're not.

[AirFrame]

At 17 he should be preparing to defend his country from the taliban not run from it. The first C-17 that left with people inside blew me away that the aircraft had so many fighting age men inside and not just women and children

What part of his country is he defending *in Afghanistan*? The US never should have been there in the first place.

It's amazing how quickly the armchair epidemiologists switched focus and got their google degrees in world politics.

[fish4life]

That's easy for you to say, sitting in your chair 10,000 km away from him. If you want men to fight, you owe them an organized army with honest and competent leaders to fight in. Your country has one of those. His doesn't.

20 years trying to do that and in a month it all came apart, why should western soldiers risk their lives for people who aren’t willing to fight for their own country? If someone was invading Canada I’d be doing everything I could to defend it and not try escape.

That’s why I don’t blame and USAF pilots for saying “nope we’re getting out of here”. They literally lost thousands of lives trying to help the people of Afghanistan and this is how it worked out.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Who are you tying to say isn't a hero? Surely not the C17 crew?

Some kid gambled with his life to try to hang onto the side of a jet aircraft while it took off. He lost that gamble. How is that the crew's fault?

[Old fella]

That's easy for you to say, sitting in your chair 10,000 km away from him. If you want men to fight, you owe them an organized army with honest and competent leaders to fight in. Your country has one of those. His doesn't.

Who owes them what?

More money spent on that 20 yr Afghanistan caper than the complete rebuild of Europe with the Marshall Plan. The US of A is correct in its assessment on continuation with the intent of extracting itself from that failed medieval state.

[photofly]

20 years trying to do that and in a month it all came apart, why should western soldiers risk their lives for people who aren’t willing to fight for their own country?

I’m not saying they should. But I’m not the person criticizing a young Afghan man for not choosing to stay and fight the Taliban. That’s you doing that, and your critique and your comment about being blown away that men of fighting age were leaving and not just “women and children” (how quaint) is bogus because one young man alone is under no moral obligation to defend his country unless his country can provide him with an organized and professionally led army from within the ranks of which to do it.

[CFR]

As always seems to be the case, the military left in an untenable situation trying to clean up political BS.

[rookiepilot]

I'm still trying to figure out how the article I linked is so ignorant and disrespectful of people in uniform, and if that is the most important issue in this anyway.

Should WSJ or others not be documenting what happened with the US exit?

[‘Bob’]

It’s not the article; it’s your title.

No heroes here.

It’s ambiguous. Who are you talking about? The pilots? If you are, that is disrespectful. A pilot’s first responsibilities are to those on board the aircraft.

Are you talking about the people on the ground? Is this more of that “tHeY wOnT eVeN dEfEnD tHeIr CoUnTrY” BS?

Try the War of Roses as a Lancaster.
Try the American Revolution as a Loyalist.
Try the Polish Occupation as a Jew.

There is no fighting back. There is only hiding or escape. Desperate people do desperate things. No different than the Falling Man we saw on a September morning 20 years ago. But I guess he should have grabbed a fire extinguisher and saved everyone.

This was always going to happen. Most of us saw this only ending in Operation Frequent Wind II almost two decades ago. Either the US withdraws, or the add their name to the list of Empires that were bankrupted by the region.

[rookiepilot]

It’s not the article; it’s your title.

No heroes here.

It’s ambiguous. Who are you talking about? The pilots? If you are, that is disrespectful. A pilot’s first responsibilities are to those on board the aircraft.

Are you talking about the people on the ground? Is this more of that “tHeY wOnT eVeN dEfEnD tHeIr CoUnTrY” BS?

Ahh. Then let me turn it around. Who are the heroes in this whole event, as you see it?

[photofly]

The Taliban. They defeated the mighty infidel United States of America and their allies, and chased them out of Afghanistan.

[stef]

$2 trillion is a staggering figure that they wasted. 600000ish homeless is USA. Could’ve given them each $3mil. Forty million Americans live in poverty. Could have given them each $50,000.

[Old fella]

The Taliban. They defeated the mighty infidel United States of America and their allies, and chased them out of Afghanistan.

When the Russians invaded Afghanistan in ‘79 with the intent of imposing Communism, the Mujahideen chased them out after a ten year conflict. Of course the Mujahideen had help from the US with those shoulder fired Stinger missiles that initially scored many hits against Russian helicopters with devastating affect. The US of A had an indirect hand in Afghanistan prior going in there just after 9/11. Same with Vietnam, the US of A provided assistance to the French during their attempt to retake their former colony prior to themselves(US) getting directly involved mid ‘60s. Don’t forget the ‘80s Iran/Iraq war when the good ole US of A(again) cozying up to Saddam against the dreaded Ayatollahs. The American Military Industrial Complex feeds upon itself where vast fortunes are accumulated, many careers advanced and employment opportunities abound. The cycle will continue..

By your leave.

[TG]

20 years trying to do that and in a month it all came apart, why should western soldiers risk their lives for people who aren’t willing to fight for their own country? If someone was invading Canada I’d be doing everything I could to defend it and not try escape.

Your point of view is one of the reason why we as westerners failed there.

They are true warriors if you replace "Country" by "Ethnicity groups"

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanis ... ed-1164278

The general, who did four tours of duty in the country before retiring in 2016, perceives the roots of failure in the allies’ creation and development of the Afghan National Army.

But the division of Afghanistan along tribal lines and loyalties is “stronger than loyalty to any institution”, he added. “A Tajik sent to Helmand does not understand why he has to defend Pashtuns.”
The new army’s leadership, variously drawn from mujahedin who had fought the Soviets, Russian-trained communists, and young Nato trained officers, all different in their way of thinking, was no more cohesive.

One key mistake he identifies in building up the Afghan army was imposing sophisticated equipment on it without the capacity to maintain it, and an operative style reliant on complex organisation, logistical support, helicopters and planes.

“Afghans are natural warriors, thanks to decades of conflict, but we made them lose touch with natural ways of fighting,” General Battisti said.

“Instead we should have valued their innate capacity as guerrilla fighters,” he added, allowing them to be light on their feet like the Taliban.

[photofly]

99% of Afghanis want sharia law, and almost as many hated their "president".

99% of Afghani women want to be confined to their homes? Really?

[Old fella]

Interesting read and good points noted.

https://gwynnedyer.com/2021/afghanistan ... would-end/