AME shortage?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

[...]

Wow, your logic for mobile AME rates isn’t reality based. If said AME is traveling to you and signing your annual he absolutely charges for travel time and mileage (I also charge federally recommended perdiems). The extra “$40/hr” should be the convenience fee alone.
I personally do this kind of work as well when in Canada, and SeptRepairs rates are very reasonable.
You can’t align $50/hr full time with a sole proprietor or incorporation. There are several things to consider when a self employed AME does work on your machine;

•His tax bill , cpp and EI contributions are ALL on him (this is major and the GST, PST, HST wherever you’re located that’s on his invoice barely helps with that until tax time.
•Increased liability signing with his license vs under an established amo (private aircraft are the highest liabilities out there)
•Manuals he has to pay subscriptions for (just one of mine is $6000/year)
•If he has an amo there is a hangarage agreement therefore another cost (I do realize you’ve accounted for that in your reply, however something required by TC is a hangar arrangement at minimum for an amo) and that will cost something
•Insurance, on the business for contents, vehicles, health and liability

These are just a few things that a business owner / mobile AME has to pay for. The full time $50/ames are covered largely for this under their employer. For the convenience to have an AME come on site to work on your machine is easily worth double if not triple a hangar ames salary.
Having said that you also have to factor in what kind of work the AME can do (as he certainly should depending on the work he’s doing). Is he a structures guy? Does he offer vibration analysis? Is he D17.1 rated for welding? etc etc. There is no one fits all AME rate for mobile work but I think $115/hr for a remote annual is a bargain.

Who are you arguing with? I wrote that I would be ok with 115 / hour + travel time + mileage.
I said that that a 50/hour employee would likely want to make 75 / hour, which -if he charged 115/hour - would leave 40 / hour for all the expenses you mentioned. Depending on your business model, that may or may not be enough. If it's not, then obviously don't offer the service.

I'm wondering if you could give me some examples of where an AME working on a private airplane was held liable for damage. What situations are you worried about? Most liabilities I can think off, exist in pretty much any profession. Same for insurance.

And as mentioned in your insurance topic, doing the work under a corporation, and having all your assets in another one would offer you some protection there as well.


Then you go on to say:

SeptRepair we’re on the same page here and I have had this discussion with customers and explained inherent associated costs ad nauseam why my rates are what they are.
Try owning equipment that needs annual calibration and repair that costs thousands per year alone to offer customers the service we do. $115/hr for mobile service is a bargain, personally I charge much more, but there’s always guys out there living in a van billing the GA guys $50/hr or less (cash) to do the “work”

So to summarize: 115/hour is not enough to do this, yet you know people who do it for 50 / hour?

Do you see the flaw in your logic?

There is no flaw in my logic, and yes there are a few guys kicking around with no insurance, no morals, working out of a van and delivering pizzas on the side just to do this racket billing $50/hr or less…(some may or may not be on this forum). Using their full time employers tools etc.
Yes I can cite several instances where people were sued in this industry after an incident. Incorporating offers little protection without it being insured, a cost that’s mandatory. Even with insurance under civil law in Canada (simplified or not) things can get ugly.
People can be sued personally as well as corporations. I’ve witnessed it a few times in the industry. Just go on canlii and have a look for yourself, I’m not going to post public records here libelously. Keep in mind, those are the files that made it to trial! Not to mention files that ended after discovery.
Digits if you have been a business owner or an AME you would align more with what I’m talking about.
And to answer what I’m most worried about?
Simple;
•Owners wrenching on their own aircraft after my license is in the journey log with no maintenance entry from said owner maintenance
•Low time often older private pilots with questionable health flying antiques that I signed work for over built up populated structures.

[SeptRepair]

I'm wondering if you could give me some examples of where an AME working on a private airplane was held liable for damage. What situations are you worried about? Most liabilities I can think off, exist in pretty much any profession. Same for insurance.

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I'm wondering if you could give me some examples of where an AME working on a private airplane was held liable for damage. What situations are you worried about? Most liabilities I can think off, exist in pretty much any profession. Same for insurance.

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

I know a few unfortunately all of which were GA except one helicopter. GA scares me with owners fiddling with things after the plane is out of site. I’ve come back to them with broken torque seal things zip tied crudely etc with no maintenance records that indicate things were opened up. Just makes me cringe.

[rookiepilot]

I have done this type of work. It is a fucking miserable way to make money. Not saying your friend isnt happy, but for me laying on the cold ground/dirt in a T hanger because the owner doesn't want any inconvenience of having to make arrangements to bring the aircraft to me after awhile got very old. You say charge accordingly. Does 115$ an hour sound reasonable to drive, spend time setting up, perform the work, clean up and drive back home each day sound like a deal? Typical annual with a couple snags is a 3 day ordeal. Based on a 10hr day of which maybe 6-7 of it is on the aircraft and the rest driving. Not working a longer day, because we need to talk overtime premiums. This puts the annual at about 3500$ for labour alone. You would pay that rate willingly on your 172? ( just picking an aircraft, have no idea what you own).

Yes, I would. My time is worth a lot more than that, humbly spoken. And I'm not alone. Charge me 150 if thats the market for quality on site work. I don't care, but I won't tolerate problems, hassles, excuses, mistakes, headaches, and people who won't answer the phone. Goes for everything I buy.

One of my frustrations of this world is how self service, low service it's become, as the model has become to sell at rock bottom margins -- everything -- and cram as many seats in a commercial aircraft, or self service kiosks everywhere. It's ridiculous.

There's a big window between the self service, rock bottom model and chartering your own jet, so to speak, that isn't serviced well.

Money isn't the issue. I love to support other small businesses and I never quibble on the price. What is the issue is finding guys who will do quality work on anything and actually care, They are usually backed up due to their reputation and have a pretty good life.

$150 is still lower than a kenworth dealership. Quality will reflect in the price

Whatever. Make it higher. My upfront motto with everyone I hire: I won’t argue about the bill, i pay very well, but I don’t like problems. Screw me over…..you’ll wish you hadn’t. Do it right.

And that is surprisingly hard to find at most any price, because people don’t care. Sloppy, lazy, is more the norm, than not.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Yes, I would. My time is worth a lot more than that, humbly spoken. And I'm not alone. Charge me 150 if thats the market for quality on site work. I don't care, but I won't tolerate problems, hassles, excuses, mistakes, headaches, and people who won't answer the phone. Goes for everything I buy.

One of my frustrations of this world is how self service, low service it's become, as the model has become to sell at rock bottom margins -- everything -- and cram as many seats in a commercial aircraft, or self service kiosks everywhere. It's ridiculous.

There's a big window between the self service, rock bottom model and chartering your own jet, so to speak, that isn't serviced well.

Money isn't the issue. I love to support other small businesses and I never quibble on the price. What is the issue is finding guys who will do quality work on anything and actually care, They are usually backed up due to their reputation and have a pretty good life.

$150 is still lower than a kenworth dealership. Quality will reflect in the price

Whatever. Make it higher. My upfront motto with everyone I hire: I won’t argue about the bill, i pay very well, but I don’t like problems. Screw me over…..you’ll wish you hadn’t. Do it right.

And that is surprisingly hard to find at most any price, because people don’t care. Sloppy, lazy, is more the norm, than not.

Unfortunately have to agree with you. I bill fairly as Septrepair said I won’t price myself out of the market I’m in, I’m fair I won’t screw around I fix what’s needed and requested. I communicate effectively with customers to form solutions and have built a good customer base.

[rookiepilot]

$150 is still lower than a kenworth dealership. Quality will reflect in the price

Whatever. Make it higher. My upfront motto with everyone I hire: I won’t argue about the bill, i pay very well, but I don’t like problems. Screw me over…..you’ll wish you hadn’t. Do it right.

And that is surprisingly hard to find at most any price, because people don’t care. Sloppy, lazy, is more the norm, than not.

Unfortunately have to agree with you. I bill fairly as Septrepair said I won’t price myself out of the market I’m in, I’m fair I won’t screw around I fix what’s needed and requested. I communicate effectively with customers to form solutions and have built a good customer base.

If people would be willing to do this in almost any business, world would be their oyster.

[digits_]

I'm wondering if you could give me some examples of where an AME working on a private airplane was held liable for damage. What situations are you worried about? Most liabilities I can think off, exist in pretty much any profession. Same for insurance.

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

That's the thing. You hear stories about that in every industry. Yet if you ask (or look for) examples, it's rare to get one.

And if you do end up reading one, it sheds a different light on what actually happened.

Just go on canlii and have a look for yourself, I’m not going to post public records here libelously. Keep in mind, those are the files that made it to trial!

How is linking to a canlii record libelous?
One would think that canlii would be in a world of hurt if that were true, no?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I'm wondering if you could give me some examples of where an AME working on a private airplane was held liable for damage. What situations are you worried about? Most liabilities I can think off, exist in pretty much any profession. Same for insurance.

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

That's the thing. You hear stories about that in every industry. Yet if you ask (or look for) examples, it's rare to get one.

And if you do end up reading one, it sheds a different light on what actually happened.

Just go on canlii and have a look for yourself, I’m not going to post public records here libelously. Keep in mind, those are the files that made it to trial!

How is linking to a canlii record libelous?
One would think that canlii would be in a world of hurt if that were true, no?

These are NOT stories as I was personally witnessing what it did to some of these guys as they were being torn to shreds vexatiously in civil court. Unless you have access to legal counsel or have infinite money it can bankrupt people. The funny thing is once the dust settled for every single one I know that was sued, none were held accountable but the legal process broke them (it’s designed to be long, drawn out and painful to avoid being in front of a judge).

Because that would be me naming names on a different platform. There is one case in particular there I know all parties involved and it was just vexatious. I won’t mention companies or names but all in all an organization and AME was sued and found not at fault after years of ugly protracted litigation. It almost killed the poor guy.

[digits_]

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

That's the thing. You hear stories about that in every industry. Yet if you ask (or look for) examples, it's rare to get one.

And if you do end up reading one, it sheds a different light on what actually happened.

Just go on canlii and have a look for yourself, I’m not going to post public records here libelously. Keep in mind, those are the files that made it to trial!

How is linking to a canlii record libelous?
One would think that canlii would be in a world of hurt if that were true, no?

These are NOT stories as I was personally witnessing what it did to some of these guys as they were being torn to shreds vexatiously in civil court. Unless you have access to legal counsel or have infinite money it can bankrupt people. The funny thing is once the dust settled for every single one I know that was sued, none were held accountable but the legal process broke them (it’s designed to be long, drawn out and painful to avoid being in front of a judge).

Because that would be me naming names on a different platform. There is one case in particular there I know all parties involved and it was just vexatious. I won’t mention companies or names but all in all an organization and AME was sued and found not at fault after years of ugly protracted litigation. It almost killed the poor guy.

Okay, that sucks. But if he was found not at fault, then insurance wouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone can be sued. Even employees. Doesn't mean you'll be found at fault, but you'll still be stressed out.

Once could even say that it's more likely to be sued if you're insured for 100 M in liability vs Joe Smoe Mechanic driving a 50 year old truck.

Liability is a factor to consider when entering the profession, or when deciding to be self employed. But it has almost no bearing on the decision to be a travelling AME vs a hangar AME.

The same goes for all the other things you mentioned (taxes, cpp, paperwork, ...).

[Bug_Stomper_01]

That's the thing. You hear stories about that in every industry. Yet if you ask (or look for) examples, it's rare to get one.

And if you do end up reading one, it sheds a different light on what actually happened.



How is linking to a canlii record libelous?
One would think that canlii would be in a world of hurt if that were true, no?

These are NOT stories as I was personally witnessing what it did to some of these guys as they were being torn to shreds vexatiously in civil court. Unless you have access to legal counsel or have infinite money it can bankrupt people. The funny thing is once the dust settled for every single one I know that was sued, none were held accountable but the legal process broke them (it’s designed to be long, drawn out and painful to avoid being in front of a judge).

Because that would be me naming names on a different platform. There is one case in particular there I know all parties involved and it was just vexatious. I won’t mention companies or names but all in all an organization and AME was sued and found not at fault after years of ugly protracted litigation. It almost killed the poor guy.

Okay, that sucks. But if he was found not at fault, then insurance wouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone can be sued. Even employees. Doesn't mean you'll be found at fault, but you'll still be stressed out.

Once could even say that it's more likely to be sued if you're insured for 100 M in liability vs Joe Smoe Mechanic driving a 50 year old truck.

Liability is a factor to consider when entering the profession, or when deciding to be self employed. But it has almost no bearing on the decision to be a travelling AME vs a hangar AME.

The same goes for all the other things you mentioned (taxes, cpp, paperwork, ...).

After dumping hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and a ruined life even when your fund not at fault the damage is done. Not to mention something called partial indemnity which is a huge risk as well. Even with full indemnity, good luck collecting damages and legal fees from some of these sharks out there. I agree there’s inherent risk with this industry with liability, safety etc.

It’s directly relatable to travelling vs hangar AME. There’s a thing called an AE in an amo that’s an employer since 1999.

When we sign for work with our license outside of an amo we are 100% liable for that aircraft. When someone screws up under an amo the AE takes the responsibility for all employee’s work. It’s literally written that way in the cars and 99% the reason the cars were born in the late 90’s, too many people were vanity litigating (employers suing employees etc).

[digits_]

These are NOT stories as I was personally witnessing what it did to some of these guys as they were being torn to shreds vexatiously in civil court. Unless you have access to legal counsel or have infinite money it can bankrupt people. The funny thing is once the dust settled for every single one I know that was sued, none were held accountable but the legal process broke them (it’s designed to be long, drawn out and painful to avoid being in front of a judge).

Because that would be me naming names on a different platform. There is one case in particular there I know all parties involved and it was just vexatious. I won’t mention companies or names but all in all an organization and AME was sued and found not at fault after years of ugly protracted litigation. It almost killed the poor guy.

Okay, that sucks. But if he was found not at fault, then insurance wouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone can be sued. Even employees. Doesn't mean you'll be found at fault, but you'll still be stressed out.

Once could even say that it's more likely to be sued if you're insured for 100 M in liability vs Joe Smoe Mechanic driving a 50 year old truck.

Liability is a factor to consider when entering the profession, or when deciding to be self employed. But it has almost no bearing on the decision to be a travelling AME vs a hangar AME.

The same goes for all the other things you mentioned (taxes, cpp, paperwork, ...).

After dumping hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and a ruined life even when your fund not at fault the damage is done. Not to mention something called partial indemnity which is a huge risk as well. Even with full indemnity, good luck collecting damages and legal fees from some of these sharks out there. I agree there’s inherent risk with this industry with liability, safety etc.

It’s directly relatable to travelling vs hangar AME. There’s a thing called an AE in an amo that’s an employer since 1999.

When we sign for work with our license outside of an amo we are 100% liable for that aircraft. When someone screws up under an amo the AE takes the responsibility for all employee’s work. It’s literally written that way in the cars and 99% the reason the cars were born in the late 90’s, too many people were vanity litigating (employers suing employees etc).

That has to do with being self employed vs working as an employee.

Not with being self employed and traveling vs being self employed and working from your own hangar. You're either accountable or you're not. The location of where you are working doesn't matter.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Okay, that sucks. But if he was found not at fault, then insurance wouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone can be sued. Even employees. Doesn't mean you'll be found at fault, but you'll still be stressed out.

Once could even say that it's more likely to be sued if you're insured for 100 M in liability vs Joe Smoe Mechanic driving a 50 year old truck.

Liability is a factor to consider when entering the profession, or when deciding to be self employed. But it has almost no bearing on the decision to be a travelling AME vs a hangar AME.

The same goes for all the other things you mentioned (taxes, cpp, paperwork, ...).

After dumping hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and a ruined life even when your fund not at fault the damage is done. Not to mention something called partial indemnity which is a huge risk as well. Even with full indemnity, good luck collecting damages and legal fees from some of these sharks out there. I agree there’s inherent risk with this industry with liability, safety etc.

It’s directly relatable to travelling vs hangar AME. There’s a thing called an AE in an amo that’s an employer since 1999.

When we sign for work with our license outside of an amo we are 100% liable for that aircraft. When someone screws up under an amo the AE takes the responsibility for all employee’s work. It’s literally written that way in the cars and 99% the reason the cars were born in the late 90’s, too many people were vanity litigating (employers suing employees etc).

That has to do with being self employed vs working as an employee.

Not with being self employed and traveling vs being self employed and working from your own hangar. You're either accountable or you're not. The location of where you are working doesn't matter.

The location absolutely matters, working on an aircraft in a blizzard outside on a pad, or some dark unheated no power no light ww2 hanger via pit lamp vs a controlled, well lit, temperature regulated environment is definitely a factor. I worked remotely for years and when you’re at the mercy of whatever facility you’re at it’s a whole other ballgame. I got paid for that inconvenience and lack of resources piled on top of the other dirty dozen heaped on by the truckload. These factors and decisions directly affect your liability as risk goes up, so does impending consequences which increases liability. I think you’re not understanding the word liability and what it means…

[PitchLink]

This thread is a great read, how the heck are you signing private stuff without an amo anyways? Do you just sign a release in the journey log and that’s it? The cars state anything under part four or seven needs an amo, so just private aircraft. I still couldn’t imaging signing some private guys jalopy Cessna and taking on all of the liability especially for what people are saying the pay is like…

[Bug_Stomper_01]

This thread is a great read, how the heck are you signing private stuff without an amo anyways? Do you just sign a release in the journey log and that’s it? The cars state anything under part four or seven needs an amo, so just private aircraft. I still couldn’t imaging signing some private guys jalopy Cessna and taking on all of the liability especially for what people are saying the pay is like…

It ain’t worth it. 604 stuff is generally private cheap owners, and most definitely work on their machines after you’ve signed for maintenance.

[PitchLink]

Okay, that sucks. But if he was found not at fault, then insurance wouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone can be sued. Even employees. Doesn't mean you'll be found at fault, but you'll still be stressed out.

Once could even say that it's more likely to be sued if you're insured for 100 M in liability vs Joe Smoe Mechanic driving a 50 year old truck.

Liability is a factor to consider when entering the profession, or when deciding to be self employed. But it has almost no bearing on the decision to be a travelling AME vs a hangar AME.

The same goes for all the other things you mentioned (taxes, cpp, paperwork, ...).

After dumping hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and a ruined life even when your fund not at fault the damage is done. Not to mention something called partial indemnity which is a huge risk as well. Even with full indemnity, good luck collecting damages and legal fees from some of these sharks out there. I agree there’s inherent risk with this industry with liability, safety etc.

It’s directly relatable to travelling vs hangar AME. There’s a thing called an AE in an amo that’s an employer since 1999.

When we sign for work with our license outside of an amo we are 100% liable for that aircraft. When someone screws up under an amo the AE takes the responsibility for all employee’s work. It’s literally written that way in the cars and 99% the reason the cars were born in the late 90’s, too many people were vanity litigating (employers suing employees etc).

That has to do with being self employed vs working as an employee.

Not with being self employed and traveling vs being self employed and working from your own hangar. You're either accountable or you're not. The location of where you are working doesn't matter.

You have no idea about what you’re talking about

[PitchLink]

I'm wondering if you could give me some examples of where an AME working on a private airplane was held liable for damage. What situations are you worried about? Most liabilities I can think off, exist in pretty much any profession. Same for insurance.

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

That's the thing. You hear stories about that in every industry. Yet if you ask (or look for) examples, it's rare to get one.

And if you do end up reading one, it sheds a different light on what actually happened.

Just go on canlii and have a look for yourself, I’m not going to post public records here libelously. Keep in mind, those are the files that made it to trial!

How is linking to a canlii record libelous?
One would think that canlii would be in a world of hurt if that were true, no?

Man, you need to brush up on what libel and slander constitutes in Canada not to mention your legal knowledge in general. People sue and get sued in Canadian aviation all the time. Most of those that make it past discoveries and to trial (the five percentile) are usually a) extremely personal or B) have a large dollar value attached to it.
Not only that, but some don’t even make it on Canlii that actually do go to trial! I know of instances where lawyers actually have to appeal to get cases listed.
Most litigation settles just before or directly after discovery.
I can attest to two large Canadian companies that are now gone due to their arrogance and gross negligence with employees. “Too many lawsuits” is one quote I recall from one of the shareholders.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

You know its funny, I do not have any examples of guys being held liable in Canada, but for me, the fear is real.

That's the thing. You hear stories about that in every industry. Yet if you ask (or look for) examples, it's rare to get one.

And if you do end up reading one, it sheds a different light on what actually happened.

Just go on canlii and have a look for yourself, I’m not going to post public records here libelously. Keep in mind, those are the files that made it to trial!

How is linking to a canlii record libelous?
One would think that canlii would be in a world of hurt if that were true, no?

Man, you need to brush up on what libel and slander constitutes in Canada not to mention your legal knowledge in general. People sue and get sued in Canadian aviation all the time. Most of those that make it past discoveries and to trial (the five percentile) are usually a) extremely personal or B) have a large dollar value attached to it.
Not only that, but some don’t even make it on Canlii that actually do go to trial! I know of instances where lawyers actually have to appeal to get cases listed.
Most litigation settles just before or directly after discovery.
I can attest to two large Canadian companies that are now gone due to their arrogance and gross negligence with employees. “Too many lawsuits” is one quote I recall from one of the shareholders.

That’s a true statement. Discoveries are public data fyi, just nobody knows how to access them