Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

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PeterParker
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Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by PeterParker »

Is it ever possible for someone from say big teal to go direct entry captain at big red? Or say someone who has experience flying the majors as captain out of the Middle East or Asia go direct entry captain at any of the majors in Canada on a large jet?

If not, it is because of ALPA?

I understand that Flair and Swoop do hire direct entry. Curious to know about some of the majors like Jazz or AC or WJ or even AT.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Hangry »

Seniority means something at the majors. Sooooo no.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by scabbydoo »

Lol no.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by tbaylx »

PeterParker wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:51 pm Is it ever possible for someone from say big teal to go direct entry captain at big red? Or say someone who has experience flying the majors as captain out of the Middle East or Asia go direct entry captain at any of the majors in Canada on a large jet?

If not, it is because of ALPA?

I understand that Flair and Swoop do hire direct entry. Curious to know about some of the majors like Jazz or AC or WJ or even AT.
The reason that Air Canada or WestJet currently don't hire DEC's is that they have sufficient First Officers with experience to upgrade matching their growth rate.

Flair is doubling in size next year. Every single eligible first officer in the company will be upgraded by spring providing opportunities for DEC's. The year after that upgrades will still be under 12 months. Compare that to Westjet where growth has mostly stagnated and upgrades were 10 years+. If WestJet were to bring on 100+ aircraft next year then they'd need DEC's too.

It's the growth rate that generates the opportunity for DEC's, all while still within seniority.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Latitude »

Because they will upgrade their FOs with seniority before hiring someone from the streets to go DEC.

Transat has enough experienced FOs to upgrade to captain. Most junior one had 6 years within the company for upgrade.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by PeterParker »

Interesting responses all… Thank you!

I get the seniority part but the DEC that joins obviously would go to the bottom of the list and work there long enough to make it up the list. I would think that’s fairly straightforward.

I’m just thinking in terms of either pilots who got laid off from majors out east or who just plain want to return to Canada or even new immigrants who have a boatload of experience from their home country and why companies like AC or WJ wouldn’t go out and get the cream of the crop? Is this just a Canadian thing or don’t US majors also not hire DECs?
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

I would be interested to know where you live and what the aviation industry is like there.

To answer your questions:
PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:59 am 1: why companies like AC or WJ wouldn’t go out and get the cream of the crop? 2: Is this just a Canadian thing or don’t US majors also not hire DECs?
1: There has been, and continues to be, an excess supply of very talented and experienced pilots in Canada. So, we do hire the cream of the crop at the initial interview process. While experience levels and numbers are slowly falling, we still have a lot of talent in country. People with unique skills you will probably never have. If that sounds like I am giving your ego a check, it's because I am.

2: It is North American wide. We have these things called unions. So, everyone hired in a union company in North America (which is all of the major airlines) starts at the bottom of the list, at the lowest position. You rise through the ranks based on that position number which you received when you were hired and through preferences of what and where you would like to fly and be based... in other words "life style choices"... that you can hold or are willing to endure based on your seniority.

Once hired at any airline, that talent you speak of, and that padded log book you mention, are meaningless. The airline will have to train all candidates to fly any aircraft they are placed upon, and that makes us all equal in the eye's of the employer. Everyone is trained to be a first officer, everyone is trained to be a captain, there is no cutting the line to get ahead. While this comes with both advantages and disadvantages, over-all the system has a level fairness in it which recognizes the years of service pilots have given to the company and rewards that with first rights on promotions rather than hiring outside the company and denying long term employees the right to promotions.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by PeterParker »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 am I would be interested to know where you live and what the aviation industry is like there.
Just a broke and dumb Canadian pilot working in the industry trying to get an understanding of our wretched industry by looking from the outside in. :prayer:
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by PeterParker »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 am While this comes with both advantages and disadvantages, over-all the system has a level fairness in it which recognizes the years of service pilots have given to the company and rewards that with first rights on promotions rather than hiring outside the company and denying long term employees the right to promotions.
Not sure if I would call this a fair system when it promotes being loyal to a company and reduces competition. I would say not too dissimilar to the various anti poaching deals that got companies like Apple and Google into trouble in the past. I’m not saying jump ahead of the seniority list. That must be honoured when it comes to bidding for holidays and schedules but to say that your loyalty to the company is what determines if you make right seat or not seems a bit foolish IMHO.

A bit of an unfair comparison, but when a company appoints a new CEO, they don’t say go start working as a manager and in 10 years we will promote you to CEO… So why not the same with DECs?

Question is are unions shooting the wrong guy when they oppose DECs? Or are companies falsely propagating that unions are what’s stopping DECs from getting hired?
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Latitude »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 am I would be interested to know where you live and what the aviation industry is like there.

To answer your questions:
PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:59 am 1: why companies like AC or WJ wouldn’t go out and get the cream of the crop? 2: Is this just a Canadian thing or don’t US majors also not hire DECs?
1: There has been, and continues to be, an excess supply of very talented and experienced pilots in Canada. So, we do hire the cream of the crop at the initial interview process. While experience levels and numbers are slowly falling, we still have a lot of talent in country. People with unique skills you will probably never have. If that sounds like I am giving your ego a check, it's because I am.

2: It is North American wide. We have these things called unions. So, everyone hired in a union company in North America (which is all of the major airlines) starts at the bottom of the list, at the lowest position. You rise through the ranks based on that position number which you received when you were hired and through preferences of what and where you would like to fly and be based... in other words "life style choices"... that you can hold or are willing to endure based on your seniority.

Once hired at any airline, that talent you speak of, and that padded log book you mention, are meaningless. The airline will have to train all candidates to fly any aircraft they are placed upon, and that makes us all equal in the eye's of the employer. Everyone is trained to be a first officer, everyone is trained to be a captain, there is no cutting the line to get ahead. While this comes with both advantages and disadvantages, over-all the system has a level fairness in it which recognizes the years of service pilots have given to the company and rewards that with first rights on promotions rather than hiring outside the company and denying long term employees the right to promotions.
Well said.

And to be fair, as a company I'd rather have a senior/experienced FO who knows the company, it's operation, any particularities, etc. upgrade to captain over a DEC who has clearly not as much knowledge in the company and it's operation than the FO who spent 5-10 years operating there.. I'd also trust the senior FO as captain more.

Also, if you hire DEC at bottom of the list, you are restricting upgrades for your current employees because the DEC takes a spot a senior FO would of taken otherwise.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by airway »

When the RJ's were first introduced at AC, I believe they hired DEC's for them. Maybe somebody can fill us in about that whole story.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by photofly »

PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:59 amwhy companies like AC or WJ wouldn’t go out and get the cream of the crop? Is this just a Canadian thing or don’t US majors also not hire DECs?
No airline in the world (without exception) markets or operates on the basis of having the best pilots. The public must understand that flying an airliner is like driving a bus in that all vehicle operators are interchangeable, one for another. And, indeed, so they are. There is no such thing as "cream of the crop". The minute anyone spreads the thought, internally or externally, that one pilot is in any way better or more skilled than another equally rated pilot, the game is over.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by yowflyer23 »

PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:27 am
Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 am While this comes with both advantages and disadvantages, over-all the system has a level fairness in it which recognizes the years of service pilots have given to the company and rewards that with first rights on promotions rather than hiring outside the company and denying long term employees the right to promotions.
Not sure if I would call this a fair system when it promotes being loyal to a company and reduces competition. I would say not too dissimilar to the various anti poaching deals that got companies like Apple and Google into trouble in the past. I’m not saying jump ahead of the seniority list. That must be honoured when it comes to bidding for holidays and schedules but to say that your loyalty to the company is what determines if you make right seat or not seems a bit foolish IMHO.

A bit of an unfair comparison, but when a company appoints a new CEO, they don’t say go start working as a manager and in 10 years we will promote you to CEO… So why not the same with DECs?

Question is are unions shooting the wrong guy when they oppose DECs? Or are companies falsely propagating that unions are what’s stopping DECs from getting hired?
I know it's not a popular opinion to have that you're communicating here, but I agree with what you're saying.

There was a movement before that fizzled out to start a college of professional pilots where we are all seen as equals. I'm dating an occupational therapist and I envy how she can work at a company for 10 years and then switch companies and get equal or better pay and vacation, benefits, etc. Her industry values experience/skill, not how long you've spent at one company. Difference is that she is a member of a professional college and there is no First Officer Therapists and Captain Therapists. For a similar thing to work for pilots and to eliminate the perceived "unfairness" that occurs when a DEC takes a spot from a company FO, we would all need to be labelled as simply 'Pilots' and have one common pay scale. The left vs right seat and how many bars you have on your shoulders would need to NOT matter. Kind of like how it works at some corporate outfits where everyone is a captain.

I really wish we had something like that in Canada though. Seniority still has its place like during layoffs, but imagine the freedom you would have of picking and choosing the quality of life that you want. You live in Toronto working for AC and want to move to Calgary without having to commute? Imagine being able to move over to Westjet and continue being paid what you make at AC. Similarly, for someone who's been working in the bush or in corporate for 10 years and wants to make the switch to 705 but can't swallow the pay cut, or vice versa (i.e. working for big red but longing for the days of fun flying up north with no autopilot, but can't take the QOL/pay cut), those issues would cease to exist. I wish we could all put our ego's behind us and work together for something like that.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

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yowflyer23 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:51 am
I know it's not a popular opinion to have that you're communicating here, but I agree with what you're saying.

There was a movement before that fizzled out to start a college of professional pilots where we are all seen as equals. I'm dating an occupational therapist and I envy how she can work at a company for 10 years and then switch companies and get equal or better pay and vacation, benefits, etc. Her industry values experience/skill, not how long you've spent at one company. Difference is that she is a member of a professional college and there is no First Officer Therapists and Captain Therapists. For a similar thing to work for pilots and to eliminate the perceived "unfairness" that occurs when a DEC takes a spot from a company FO, we would all need to be labelled as simply 'Pilots' and have one common pay scale. The left vs right seat and how many bars you have on your shoulders would need to NOT matter. Kind of like how it works at some corporate outfits where everyone is a captain.

I really wish we had something like that in Canada though. Seniority still has its place like during layoffs, but imagine the freedom you would have of picking and choosing the quality of life that you want. You live in Toronto working for AC and want to move to Calgary without having to commute? Imagine being able to move over to Westjet and continue being paid what you make at AC. Similarly, for someone who's been working in the bush or in corporate for 10 years and wants to make the switch to 705 but can't swallow the pay cut, or vice versa (i.e. working for big red but longing for the days of fun flying up north with no autopilot, but can't take the QOL/pay cut), those issues would cease to exist. I wish we could all put our ego's behind us and work together for something like that.
Exactly this! Somehow pilots have all been force fed this notion that you need to work for peanuts, expect nothing in return and be treated like dirt and somehow still be “loyal” to the company. Made it big at a company but just isn’t working anymore? Guess what, you go elsewhere and get treated even worse or just leave the industry. Makes you build a false sense of loyalty or breeds complete hatred. Like being in a loveless marriage.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by photofly »

yowflyer23 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:51 am I really wish we had something like that in Canada though.
Pilots themselves created the seniority system through their unions. Airlines couldn't give a pussy how they find pilots, as long as they pay them as little as possible.

I guarantee you OT's are paid a market rate, based on the number of applications for each position (not very many). If pilots were paid market rates even the WB captains would be working at McDs on sundays. The only thing that hold your wages up are the artificial barriers that pilots themselves have created and in whose interests they exist. Airline management would *love* to have open competition for pilot roles, believe me.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by PeterParker »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:28 am
PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:59 amwhy companies like AC or WJ wouldn’t go out and get the cream of the crop? Is this just a Canadian thing or don’t US majors also not hire DECs?
No airline in the world (without exception) markets or operates on the basis of having the best pilots. The public must understand that flying an airliner is like driving a bus in that all vehicle operators are interchangeable, one for another. And, indeed, so they are. There is no such thing as "cream of the crop". The minute anyone spreads the thought, internally or externally, that one pilot is in any way better or more skilled than another equally rated pilot, the game is over.
I guess I meant cream of the crop as experience and not skill level in this context.

Every other industry/job out there is happy to hire workers higher up the totem pole if you come with commensurate experience, even unionized jobs! Heck even the smaller airlines do hire higher up the payscale if you come DEC with experience and time. Somehow the majors seem to have a “holier than thou” reaction to this.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by DanWEC »

The concept of the pilot pay scale being essentially 100% seniority based is uniquely insane in the labour market. Off the top of my head I can't think of another industry or profession where movement almost always equals a cut in pay.
My wife is a VP. Every time she changes roles or companies it's comes with an improvement in pay and conditions, as it does for 99% of jobs.

That being said, most jobs don't come with a mandatory 60k training bill for every employee, so I believe that's been a driving factor in reducing mobility.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Ash Ketchum »

I am curious as to what happens to Canadian expat pilots who go fly in Asia/Middle East and then lose their jobs there. Do they come back to Canada and fly corporate? Do they retire/start a business outside of aviation? I am considering going the expat route myself in a few years (mainly for the $$) and one worry of mine is what will happen if I am laid off in a foreign country. I would imagine most expat pilots wouldn't want to start their careers over again at AC/WJ as a narrow body FO on flat pay.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:10 am Just a broke and dumb Canadian pilot working in the industry trying to get an understanding of our wretched industry by looking from the outside in. :prayer:
My mistake then, you were speaking like someone coming from outside the North American market.

I know it is much more mercenary in other parts of the world, like the Middle East, Asia and Europe.
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Re: Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

Post by Mostly Harmless »

PeterParker wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:27 am Not sure if I would call this a fair system when it promotes being loyal to a company and reduces competition. I would say not too dissimilar to the various anti poaching deals that got companies like Apple and Google into trouble in the past. I’m not saying jump ahead of the seniority list. That must be honoured when it comes to bidding for holidays and schedules but to say that your loyalty to the company is what determines if you make right seat or not seems a bit foolish IMHO.

A bit of an unfair comparison, but when a company appoints a new CEO, they don’t say go start working as a manager and in 10 years we will promote you to CEO… So why not the same with DECs?

Question is are unions shooting the wrong guy when they oppose DECs? Or are companies falsely propagating that unions are what’s stopping DECs from getting hired?
As I said, there are disadvantages. Mobility across employers is one of the big ones. The big advantage, to me personally, is that everyone gets treated fairly on promotions rather than people who can brow-nose their way to the top by drinking with the right people in the right bar.... very unfair for those who aren't able to do that for any variety of reasons life might throw at you.
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