Contrasting views on doing VO.

[RippleRock]

Interesting notion on the other forum about people doing VO when offered. My perspective may be a departure, and may be counter to some of our ACPF martyrs.

If anyone thought that AC was going to lay-off 5000 Flight Attendants without laying-off any pilots was living in some detached fantasy world. The FA group would NEVER have stood for it, so our thinking we were ever going to mitigate ALL pilot lay-offs was never even once a negotiating position. The FA's took a 50% hit to their numbers, we took a 14% hit.

Here we are now, bringing pilots back from lay-off at the --fastest rate-- the training department will allow, and some on the other forum think that we should punish the Mother Ship by turning down VO over this busy timeframe. Some think that punishing AC for laying off pilots is the "right move". Rubbish.

My distaste is for my Union who gave up too much, too quickly, not my company. In fact, I love AC, and I DO NOT want them to unnecessarily piss off our customers by cancelling flights because of pilot manning issues. A pissed off customer isn't a repeat customer, and could be lost to a competitor. We don't need to hand upset AC passengers to "up and comers" and impede our recovery by believing that our Company somehow needs to "attone for their sin" of laying off 14% of us during the worst, most expensive downturn in aviation history. It's ubsurd and "pilot centric" thinking that could damage the entity that pays you on the 1st and 17th of every month without fail.

I want the "trainers" training in the sim, and Managers managing our recovery, working to bring our layed-off comrades back, not out having to fly the line because of vendictive pilots who are mad at the wrong people and won't help out.

Sorry ACPF posters, but I do not agree with you this time.

Flame away.

[babybus]

Smartest, most sensible post in a long time.

[Hangry]

Well said. 100% agree.

[Canuck1988]

I respectfully disagree.

It is not our problem to pick up VO if the company dragged its feet on starting recalls. I want the company to succeed as much as you do, but not at the expense of leaving pilots on the street, and not at the expense of losing more WAWCON.

They could have started recalls earlier when other airlines and all of us saw air travel picking up from a mile away. Instead, they chose to use those laid off as bargaining chips to extract more gains from the pilot group.

[MontrealCanucks]

Interesting notion on the other forum about people doing VO when offered. My perspective may be a departure, and may be counter to some of our ACPF martyrs.

If anyone thought that AC was going to lay-off 5000 Flight Attendants without laying-off any pilots was living in some detached fantasy world. The FA group would NEVER have stood for it, so our thinking we were ever going to mitigate ALL pilot lay-offs was never even once a negotiating position. The FA's took a 50% hit to their numbers, we took a 14% hit.

Here we are now, bringing pilots back from lay-off at the --fastest rate-- the training department will allow, and some on the other forum think that we should punish the Mother Ship by turning down VO over this busy timeframe. Some think that punishing AC for laying off pilots is the "right move". Rubbish.

My distaste is for my Union who gave up too much, too quickly, not my company. In fact, I love AC, and I DO NOT want them to unnecessarily piss off our customers by cancelling flights because of pilot manning issues. A pissed off customer isn't a repeat customer, and could be lost to a competitor. We don't need to hand upset AC passengers to "up and comers" and impede our recovery by believing that our Company somehow needs to "attone for their sin" of laying off 14% of us during the worst, most expensive downturn in aviation history. It's ubsurd and "pilot centric" thinking that could damage the entity that pays you on the 1st and 17th of every month without fail.

I want the "trainers" training in the sim, and Managers managing our recovery, working to bring our layed-off comrades back, not out having to fly the line because of vendictive pilots who are mad at the wrong people and won't help out.

Sorry ACPF posters, but I do not agree with you this time.

Flame away.

I respect this opinion but mostly because there is hardly a shred of unionism at this place. We are culturally clueless

If you look around to mixed fleet airlines on this continent - we are the outliers. And sorry - we are not flight attendants. Their occupation is not ours in training, licensing or liability. But I do look at their union because well - they at least have one. They actually grieve and fight for their members.

We as a union have zero strategy and naturally had zero plan going into this crisis. We under rated our leverage in training while over rating our importance. We actually thought our 10% pay cut would be make or break for an entire cargo operation.

We have leverage in training, fatigue regulations and the Air Passenger Rights legislation.

Our focus needs to be on the profession and each other. Not the business.

If we held the line on overtime - all pilots would have to be back. There is zero chance they could crew this place without flexibility. It is not malicious. It is unionism. Furloughs don't want much. They just want to get back on payroll and start getting through this hideous 4 yrs flat pay system.

Cancelled flights cost a ton thanks to the Air Passenger Rights legislation. No pilot here wants to see the company struggle. I think most genuinely want to help the operation. The schedulers appreciate it. The passengers appreciate it. The company appreciates it.

Negotiations goes both ways and if the company knew we actually cared about our furloughs, they would treat us differently. But with weak leadership and poor solidarity - the company likely thinks we dont actually care.

Until we change the culture - you're probably right. But I guarantee if we had actually had some solidarity and said no to Volunteer Overtime - all guys would at least be back on payroll. And that is all that matters. The training department can get to them when they can...

And if it cost them a few cancelled flights to figure this out - so be it.

Respect is earned

[737Maximilian]

...

[Bingo Fuel]

Completely disagree on this point as well.

FA recalls began a LONG time ago. In June, MS told the furloughed pilots that recalls would begin in 2023, late 2022 at the earliest. All this while our competitors south of the border were dealing with staffing shortages.

This was entirely foreseeable, and preventable.

The company failed the furloughed pilots, and the company deserves the consequences of their actions. After all this is done, the company will still be here.

I ask you to stand in solidarity with the furloughed pilots, the vast majority who are still on the street. Even when they return, they still have to endure another 2-4 years of flat pay.

Stand up for your fellow pilots. The company will be just fine. The customers will still be there.

Demand better.

[RippleRock]

I voted NO to every proposal our "yellow union" ever "recommended voting yes to". Every one.

Four years flat pay was NOT FIXED by ACPA, and was enshrined in a ten year deal that they recommended. We need to hold ourselves to account, NOT the Company. They negotiate concessions where they can get them. That's their JOB.

If we don't like what we continuously vote "yes" to, the Company should not be held accountable. Vindictive actions like withholding VO when needed, only hurts the Company. Could they have planned better, and brought back those furloughed sooner? Possibly, but this is a very dynamic situation, and unprecedented.

Know that if VO is not covered, it will be covered by those tasked with re-training our recalled brothers and sisters, or managers that should be unburdened with flying when trying to plan our comeback. They could be held out of service longer as a result.

You guys like the idea of Flair with 50 fins? Make a decision. When everyone is trained up and back on the property, and our market share is secure, THEN take a stand. Booting ACPA into the dumpster would be a great start.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Lot of fear there RippleRock

And dont get me wrong - fear sells.

ULCC airlines can have as many fins as they want. That is for the company to deal with.

My focus is on my brothers & sisters


NO TO VO


Until all are back being PAID

[Bingo Fuel]

The company will survive just fine.

I have no sympathy for management who left the 600 furloughed pilots with nothing.

I have no sympathy for the senior pilots, who refused to advocate more strongly for the "unborn" pilots, and have left us with Best Fit.

The "unborn" are coming back in record numbers now.

I stand with them.

[dumpsterfire]

I voted NO to every proposal our "yellow union" ever "recommended voting yes to". Every one.

Four years flat pay was NOT FIXED by ACPA, and was enshrined in a ten year deal that they recommended. We need to hold ourselves to account, NOT the Company. They negotiate concessions where they can get them. That's their JOB.

If we don't like what we continuously vote "yes" to, the Company should not be held accountable. Vindictive actions like withholding VO when needed, only hurts the Company. Could they have planned better, and brought back those furloughed sooner? Possibly, but this is a very dynamic situation, and unprecedented.

Know that if VO is not covered, it will be covered by those tasked with re-training our recalled brothers and sisters, or managers that should be unburdened with flying when trying to plan our comeback. They could be held out of service longer as a result.

You guys like the idea of Flair with 50 fins? Make a decision. When everyone is trained up and back on the property, and our market share is secure, THEN take a stand. Booting ACPA into the dumpster would be a great start.

"Air Canada is the flag carrier and the largest airline of Canada by fleet size and passengers carried. The airline, founded in 1937..."

RippleRock...chill bra

Canada's flag carrier which is government back and has been around for 84 years isn't going anywhere.

Unity moving forward...not panic...there will ALWAYS be some scary threat.

Chill...

[pumpkinpatch]

Interesting notion on the other forum about people doing VO when offered. My perspective may be a departure, and may be counter to some of our ACPF martyrs.

If anyone thought that AC was going to lay-off 5000 Flight Attendants without laying-off any pilots was living in some detached fantasy world. The FA group would NEVER have stood for it, so our thinking we were ever going to mitigate ALL pilot lay-offs was never even once a negotiating position. The FA's took a 50% hit to their numbers, we took a 14% hit.

Here we are now, bringing pilots back from lay-off at the --fastest rate-- the training department will allow, and some on the other forum think that we should punish the Mother Ship by turning down VO over this busy timeframe. Some think that punishing AC for laying off pilots is the "right move". Rubbish.

My distaste is for my Union who gave up too much, too quickly, not my company. In fact, I love AC, and I DO NOT want them to unnecessarily piss off our customers by cancelling flights because of pilot manning issues. A pissed off customer isn't a repeat customer, and could be lost to a competitor. We don't need to hand upset AC passengers to "up and comers" and impede our recovery by believing that our Company somehow needs to "attone for their sin" of laying off 14% of us during the worst, most expensive downturn in aviation history. It's ubsurd and "pilot centric" thinking that could damage the entity that pays you on the 1st and 17th of every month without fail.

I want the "trainers" training in the sim, and Managers managing our recovery, working to bring our layed-off comrades back, not out having to fly the line because of vendictive pilots who are mad at the wrong people and won't help out.

Sorry ACPF posters, but I do not agree with you this time.

Flame away.

People like you are the reason we have no solidarity at this company.

[pumpkinpatch]

Interesting notion on the other forum about people doing VO when offered. My perspective may be a departure, and may be counter to some of our ACPF martyrs.

If anyone thought that AC was going to lay-off 5000 Flight Attendants without laying-off any pilots was living in some detached fantasy world. The FA group would NEVER have stood for it, so our thinking we were ever going to mitigate ALL pilot lay-offs was never even once a negotiating position. The FA's took a 50% hit to their numbers, we took a 14% hit.

Here we are now, bringing pilots back from lay-off at the --fastest rate-- the training department will allow, and some on the other forum think that we should punish the Mother Ship by turning down VO over this busy timeframe. Some think that punishing AC for laying off pilots is the "right move". Rubbish.

My distaste is for my Union who gave up too much, too quickly, not my company. In fact, I love AC, and I DO NOT want them to unnecessarily piss off our customers by cancelling flights because of pilot manning issues. A pissed off customer isn't a repeat customer, and could be lost to a competitor. We don't need to hand upset AC passengers to "up and comers" and impede our recovery by believing that our Company somehow needs to "attone for their sin" of laying off 14% of us during the worst, most expensive downturn in aviation history. It's ubsurd and "pilot centric" thinking that could damage the entity that pays you on the 1st and 17th of every month without fail.

I want the "trainers" training in the sim, and Managers managing our recovery, working to bring our layed-off comrades back, not out having to fly the line because of vendictive pilots who are mad at the wrong people and won't help out.

Sorry ACPF posters, but I do not agree with you this time.

Flame away.

I respect this opinion but mostly because there is hardly a shred of unionism at this place. We are culturally clueless

If you look around to mixed fleet airlines on this continent - we are the outliers. And sorry - we are not flight attendants. Their occupation is not ours in training, licensing or liability. But I do look at their union because well - they at least have one. They actually grieve and fight for their members.

We as a union have zero strategy and naturally had zero plan going into this crisis. We under rated our leverage in training while over rating our importance. We actually thought our 10% pay cut would be make or break for an entire cargo operation.

We have leverage in training, fatigue regulations and the Air Passenger Rights legislation.

Our focus needs to be on the profession and each other. Not the business.

If we held the line on overtime - all pilots would have to be back. There is zero chance they could crew this place without flexibility. It is not malicious. It is unionism. Furloughs don't want much. They just want to get back on payroll and start getting through this hideous 4 yrs flat pay system.

Cancelled flights cost a ton thanks to the Air Passenger Rights legislation. No pilot here wants to see the company struggle. I think most genuinely want to help the operation. The schedulers appreciate it. The passengers appreciate it. The company appreciates it.

Negotiations goes both ways and if the company knew we actually cared about our furloughs, they would treat us differently. But with weak leadership and poor solidarity - the company likely thinks we dont actually care.

Until we change the culture - you're probably right. But I guarantee if we had actually had some solidarity and said no to Volunteer Overtime - all guys would at least be back on payroll. And that is all that matters. The training department can get to them when they can...

And if it cost them a few cancelled flights to figure this out - so be it.

Respect is earned

All they need to do if pilots stopped doing overtime is bring all the furloughs back on the payroll. You know, like Jazz did in August. If everyone is being paid, fill your boots on OT.

Oh by the way they're also fucking over the furloughs by limiting the vacancies is direct violation of the collective agreement. Yet no one seems to care, Sr pilots or the Union.

What else is new.

Real unions put limits on overtime when there's layoffs. ACPA is not a real Union.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Exactly

And while everyone wants a strong company, company sympathizers need to ask themselves some questions:

Is having a pathetic union by design?

Does the company consistently infiltrate the union?

Does the company regularly poach union reps?

Who is the lead negotiator negotiating to pay us less? An ex Union leader?

Who is the union CEO? An ex manager? What are his contacts?

Is that very "win as one"?

[RippleRock]

Interesting notion on the other forum about people doing VO when offered. My perspective may be a departure, and may be counter to some of our ACPF martyrs.

If anyone thought that AC was going to lay-off 5000 Flight Attendants without laying-off any pilots was living in some detached fantasy world. The FA group would NEVER have stood for it, so our thinking we were ever going to mitigate ALL pilot lay-offs was never even once a negotiating position. The FA's took a 50% hit to their numbers, we took a 14% hit.

Here we are now, bringing pilots back from lay-off at the --fastest rate-- the training department will allow, and some on the other forum think that we should punish the Mother Ship by turning down VO over this busy timeframe. Some think that punishing AC for laying off pilots is the "right move". Rubbish.

My distaste is for my Union who gave up too much, too quickly, not my company. In fact, I love AC, and I DO NOT want them to unnecessarily piss off our customers by cancelling flights because of pilot manning issues. A pissed off customer isn't a repeat customer, and could be lost to a competitor. We don't need to hand upset AC passengers to "up and comers" and impede our recovery by believing that our Company somehow needs to "attone for their sin" of laying off 14% of us during the worst, most expensive downturn in aviation history. It's ubsurd and "pilot centric" thinking that could damage the entity that pays you on the 1st and 17th of every month without fail.

I want the "trainers" training in the sim, and Managers managing our recovery, working to bring our layed-off comrades back, not out having to fly the line because of vendictive pilots who are mad at the wrong people and won't help out.

Sorry ACPF posters, but I do not agree with you this time.

Flame away.

People like you are the reason we have no solidarity at this company.

ARE F'ING YOU KIDDING ME???

I have been here over 20 years and watched ACPA erode nearly every single facet of unity that former pilots have earned over the last 70 years. ACPA is the bad guy NOT the Company. Every single propsal has earned a "hell NO" vote from me, yet EVERY PROPOSAL PASSES. F'ing EMBARASSING!

Take some responsibility for what you idiots have voted YES to over the last decade. It seems we like to point fingers at everyone but ourselves. WE ARE ACPA and we SUCK. Stop blaming and lashing out at the Company for our own failures. It is their job to protect the Shareholder and extract value. They have done a great job.

We SUCK and are great at looking for external blame. This Company blaming is getting pathetic.

[Montroyal]

So it's our fault for our crap contract and the company's crew planning strategy leading them to need guys doing overtime?

So the company can do no wrong?

Ripple...you're losing the plot...what happened dude

[RippleRock]

O.K.

What is the plot then? It's quite possible I've missed something.

Perhaps the Company made a crewing error. This is entirely possible due to the situation rapidly changing both with psychotic border restrictions and Virus spread predictions.

Are you going to hold their feet to the fire during our busiest season with the likelyhood of flight cancellations forcing our passengers to choose another carrier for making this error??? What about the likelihood of delaying the return of our furloughed members because we need to gut the training department to cover flying? There is no fear mongering as others have suggested, it's just a logical consequence of taking a stand in a busy season. What point does refusing VO make, other than you are frustrated with shit representation???

They are bringing furloughs back as fast as the training department will allow. That's a fact.

Any failings were of ACPA and our inability to negotiate properly. Is this the Corps fault? Maybe we should look in a mirror.

[pumpkinpatch]

Are you going to hold their feet to the fire during our busiest season with the likelyhood of flight cancellations forcing our passengers to choose another carrier for making this error???

Yes.

Because the only way this company will ever change the way they operate is if it costs them money. Will it make an immediate impact for our furloughs now? No probably not, it's too late.

But, next time there's furloughs or anything similar they will think twice about how many pilots they let go and/or how fast they bring them back.

Same goes for the VBBs offered in the fall when the contract specificity says none when there's layoffs. Yes we might have lost a cargo contract. Guess what? Don't care. The company would still be here, but next time they would think twice about their forward looking plans for crew levels.

If we keep bailing them out for their poor decisions, nothing will ever change. Part of the issue of why things are the way they are now is how pilots operated in the past. The company knew that everyone would do overtime and take VBBs and have the Union come to their rescue.

If no one took OT back in the early 2000s layoff, they would have acted differently now. So now we have the opportunity to be the change we wish we already had.

SAY NO TO VO!

[pumpkinpatch]

They are bringing furloughs back as fast as the training department will allow. That's a fact.

They should have started bringing pilots back in the summer. Just because now they happen to be frantically speeding things up to maximum doesn't mean it was the right method.

And it has nothing to do with training, it's about getting people back on payroll. If pilots stopped doing overtime and the company needed a fix, the fix is "bring back all pilots to payroll and you'll have hundreds of pilots now ok with listing for VO"..

Jazz brought every single one of their pilots back on payroll in August. After having them all on the special wage subsidy for over a year. Many of those pilots won't see training until the spring or summer but they're getting paid and accruing YOS and that's what matters.

You are completely missing the point.

[dumpsterfire]

O.K.

What is the plot then? It's quite possible I've missed something.

Perhaps the Company made a crewing error. This is entirely possible due to the situation rapidly changing both with psychotic border restrictions and Virus spread predictions.

Are you going to hold their feet to the fire during our busiest season with the likelyhood of flight cancellations forcing our passengers to choose another carrier for making this error??? What about the likelihood of delaying the return of our furloughed members because we need to gut the training department to cover flying? There is no fear mongering as others have suggested, it's just a logical consequence of taking a stand in a busy season. What point does refusing VO make, other than you are frustrated with shit representation???

They are bringing furloughs back as fast as the training department will allow. That's a fact.

Any failings were of ACPA and our inability to negotiate properly. Is this the Corps fault? Maybe we should look in a mirror.

Plot:

Union: "We are finally showing some solidarity around here so no voluntary overtime until all of us are on payroll"

Company: "Ok...umm...looks like we may have some coverage issues over the Holiday season..."

Union: "OK - Happy Holidays!"

Company: "Umm could we entertain you with a Let to expedite getting guys back"

Union: "Sure...all guys back on payroll and you can train whoever, whenever, however"

Company: "OK"


Voila: everyone happy