http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolo ... d0837b&p=1The airline involved in a crash that killed three people near Port Alberni Jan. 21 is under investigation for allegedly violating federal labour standards, a government official confirmed Tuesday.
Terry Baker, an operations manager with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, said multiple complaints have been filed against International Express Aircharter Ltd., and that an officer has been assigned to investigate.
International Express does business as Regency Express Flight Operations and Sonicblue Airways, which operated the Cessna 208 Caravan that crashed near Port Alberni on a flight from Tofino to Vancouver with eight people aboard.
Pilot Edward Huggett, 25, of White Rock, 58-year-old Terry Douglas of Alberta, and three-year-old Braeden Hale of Tofino died in the crash. Braeden's 17-month-old sister, his mother, and three other women were seriously injured.
Baker declined to comment on the specific nature of the complaints against the airline, but said the majority of the department's investigations involve non-payment of wages.
The father of a pilot killed in the crash said Tuesday that he filed one of the complaints alleging that his son and 18 other young men and women were not paid while flying as first officers with the airline over the past three years.
Jonathan Huggett said his son, Edward, and others flew for free in order to build up their flying time. Huggett said he supported his son for almost two years until he became a captain and began getting paid to fly.
"It was very simple: 'You want to fly and you want to get hours, these are the conditions you work under,'" Jonathan Huggett said.
Huggett filed the complaint on behalf of his son, but noted in his letter to HRSDC that "There is understandable reluctance from some of the other young men and women to come forward because of possible repercussions."
He asked investigators to audit the company's records in order to determine the money owing all first officers.
"It's just a disgraceful situation that's been allowed to develop," he said. "Fortunately, now, HRSDC has been very helpful, and I'm fairly confident they're working very diligently to get this fixed."
Nobody answered the telephone at Sonicblue Airways Tuesday, and the Times Colonist was unable to leave a message because the answering machine was full.
Nikolas Chapman, who has been speaking for the airline as its operations manager, declined to comment, saying he's no longer with the firm.
"The company's gone under a lot of obvious difficulties, and I wouldn't be able to direct you to anyone. I'm sorry," he said.
Meanwhile, the Transportation Safety Board recommended Tuesday that the Department of Transport prohibit the operation of Canadian Cessna 208, 208A, and 208B airplanes in icing conditions that exceed "light" until the airworthiness of the planes in such conditions is proven.
The recommendations stem from the investigation of a fatal crash of a Cessna 208 plane at Winnipeg in October 2005, and are not linked to the Port Alberni crash, regional manager Bill Yearwood said Tuesday We do not believe at this point that icing played a part in this accident," he said. "Our accident here had no bearing on that [news] release."
Yearwood said investigators began taking apart the plane's engine Tuesday to find out why it may have lost power, which the pilot reported shortly before the crash.
"We will hopefully get into the engine and see what components are broken," he said. "If we have broken components -- which we suspect we will find -- we have to ship those off to our lab for analysis as to why those components broke, whether there was fatigue or overload or corrosion. ... There's still a lot of work to do."
© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2006
Sonic Blue Target of Federal Probe
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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ScudRunner
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Sonic Blue Target of Federal Probe
From Victoris Times Columnist
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Flying Low
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I call BULLSHIT!"It was very simple: 'You want to fly and you want to get hours, these are the conditions you work under,'" Jonathan Huggett said.
No one has to work for free! YOU CHOOSE TO! If money is recovered from this company it shouldn't go to the people who agreed to work for nothing. This situation cannot exist without accomplices!
"The ability to ditch an airplane in the Hudson does not qualify a pilot for a pay raise. The ability to get the pilots, with this ability, to work for 30% or 40% pay cuts qualifies those in management for millions in bonuses."
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1LostPilot
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So who should it go to then Einstein?! You, for your truly astute and intellectual observations?.....I call BULLSHIT!
No one has to work for free! YOU CHOOSE TO! If money is recovered from this company it shouldn't go to the people who agreed to work for nothing. This situation cannot exist without accomplices
They will probably issue an order to pay wages... but before anyone gets too excited:
1) It will likely be at the applicable minimum wage; and
2) Don't hold your breath on anyone actually seeing any cash. If ordered to pay, the company will likely go "belly up". It there isn't enough of the "companys money" to pay, then you'll have to take the corporations "director(s)" to court to get a judgement against them personally.
The good news, is that this could most defenitely put them out of business.
1) It will likely be at the applicable minimum wage; and
2) Don't hold your breath on anyone actually seeing any cash. If ordered to pay, the company will likely go "belly up". It there isn't enough of the "companys money" to pay, then you'll have to take the corporations "director(s)" to court to get a judgement against them personally.
The good news, is that this could most defenitely put them out of business.
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Flying Low
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Not sure...but the company shouldn't benefit from not paying the wages and the pilot shouldn't benefit from saying, "It's ok, I'll work for free" and then turn around and slap them with a lawsuit.So who should it go to then Einstein?! You, for your truly astute and intellectual observations?.....
"The ability to ditch an airplane in the Hudson does not qualify a pilot for a pay raise. The ability to get the pilots, with this ability, to work for 30% or 40% pay cuts qualifies those in management for millions in bonuses."
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Dust Devil
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Bang on man. I fail to see how anyone can argue with that. No one put a gun to their heads and said fly or else.Flying Low wrote: Not sure...but the company shouldn't benefit from not paying the wages and the pilot shouldn't benefit from saying, "It's ok, I'll work for free" and then turn around and slap them with a lawsuit.
Man, Mr. Huggett is walking a tightrope there. What "conditions" is he suggesting his son was aware of? Furthermore, what kind of person agrees to work for nothing. In ANY job?"It was very simple: 'You want to fly and you want to get hours, these are the conditions you work under,'" Jonathan Huggett said.
It's not, its a disgruntled father... Who was okay with him flying for free for 2 years and even okay with him flying "un-safe equipment" for X years and killing people with it. But once his son died, it's a personal vendetta...Flying Low wrote:and the pilot shouldn't benefit from saying, "It's ok, I'll work for free" and then turn around and slap them with a lawsuit.
I agree with Flying low and others, these losers shouldn't be paid a red cent, give it to charity or something worthwhile.
Although I agree with Flying-Low's statement and the general sentiment in this forum, I wouldn't have said it so vulgarly...
It seems to be a common theme on here to bitch about all those poor suckers working for free saying "they have the choice" etc. (I'm not talking about training bonds which ARE stupid). So I question those who so vocally discredit these people, was it this hard to get a job pre911? I don't think so. It's also ignorant to say "the system wouldn't exist without accomplices" (no offense flyinglow, I'm guilty of saying it too). Lets step back and think realistically people, if the opportunity is there someone will take it.
Although thankfully I never did work for free, I did have that option when I was a newbie (full of unrealistic career expectations and false impressions of this crazy industry). I'll tell-ya, it was a tough choice and the pressure was on to "make it". Us pilots are a passionate bunch, we all jokingly say we love flying so much we'd work for free... These guys & gals unfortunately made the poor decision to walk the talk. So lets try to give these kids some credit and show some support rather then bad mouthing them. They obviously have no idea what they're getting into, or understand their self-worth. Of course it would help considerably if the government cracked down on operators like this (after all it IS ILLEGAL), but it's also our responsibility as mentors to steer these folks in the right direction.
I also hope this serves as a bit of an eye-opener for allllll those other operations that have pilots "working for free".
It seems to be a common theme on here to bitch about all those poor suckers working for free saying "they have the choice" etc. (I'm not talking about training bonds which ARE stupid). So I question those who so vocally discredit these people, was it this hard to get a job pre911? I don't think so. It's also ignorant to say "the system wouldn't exist without accomplices" (no offense flyinglow, I'm guilty of saying it too). Lets step back and think realistically people, if the opportunity is there someone will take it.
Although thankfully I never did work for free, I did have that option when I was a newbie (full of unrealistic career expectations and false impressions of this crazy industry). I'll tell-ya, it was a tough choice and the pressure was on to "make it". Us pilots are a passionate bunch, we all jokingly say we love flying so much we'd work for free... These guys & gals unfortunately made the poor decision to walk the talk. So lets try to give these kids some credit and show some support rather then bad mouthing them. They obviously have no idea what they're getting into, or understand their self-worth. Of course it would help considerably if the government cracked down on operators like this (after all it IS ILLEGAL), but it's also our responsibility as mentors to steer these folks in the right direction.
I also hope this serves as a bit of an eye-opener for allllll those other operations that have pilots "working for free".
CYYZ I can’t believe you would say something so horrible. I believe the father is doing this to send a message to other operators that not paying pilots will not be tolerated. Maybe the pilots shouldn’t get paid I’m not disputing this but for you to say the Mr. Huggett was ok with his son putting his live and the lives of other people at risk is far from the truth. I hope we never cross paths in the future.
CYYZ I can’t believe you would say something so horrible. I believe the father is doing this to send a message to other operators that not paying pilots will not be tolerated. Maybe the pilots shouldn’t get paid I’m not disputing this but for you to say the Mr. Huggett was ok with his son putting his life and the lives of other people at risk is far from the truth. I hope we never cross paths in the future.
When you are learning to fly, unless you have contacts in the industry there is no reason to not believe everything you hear from your instructor. If you are told that you need hours and here is a way to get them, of course someone's going to do it. Why would you people deny these pilots the wages that are due to them? Somebody should have been paid to do that job, why not them?
When I flew a larger a/c out of a base next to a flying school, I had students asking me to let them come along for the ride, they would help with the freight or do other chores. I had to say no because of insurance, but its a very slippery slope to allow rides, or offer them for labour. Having a swamper is a luxury, right? Its up to us seniors, as somebody else mentioned, to mentor the newbies, so that they do get the real information they need.
Vulgarity is hardly describing it, but its close. Those arguments are like saying to the tsunami victims they don't deserve any aid because they chose to live close to the sea, or that girl's clothing is provocative so she deserved to be raped.
You sure read some asinine ideas here - give the money to charity. That's a really great one.
Maybe there should be a new rule that states that posters must use the preview button first and give it a re-read. Might help.
When I flew a larger a/c out of a base next to a flying school, I had students asking me to let them come along for the ride, they would help with the freight or do other chores. I had to say no because of insurance, but its a very slippery slope to allow rides, or offer them for labour. Having a swamper is a luxury, right? Its up to us seniors, as somebody else mentioned, to mentor the newbies, so that they do get the real information they need.
Vulgarity is hardly describing it, but its close. Those arguments are like saying to the tsunami victims they don't deserve any aid because they chose to live close to the sea, or that girl's clothing is provocative so she deserved to be raped.
You sure read some asinine ideas here - give the money to charity. That's a really great one.
Maybe there should be a new rule that states that posters must use the preview button first and give it a re-read. Might help.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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chancellor
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cyyz,
Right on. Where was the father when his kid was working for free for two years, all of a sudden it is illegal. This industry has always had cycles 9-11 although unfortunate was another bump in the road. It might take awhile but there is jobs to be had if you want them bad enough. And yeah you may need to travel away to butt-f#*k nowhere to get them. Although there is bad operators like Sonic blue there seems to be an abundance of people took fill the positions. I bet if they opened up tomorrow again there would be a hundred resume's there. The flight schools should have a course called integrity 101 but I guess that would affect the bottom line.
Mike
Right on. Where was the father when his kid was working for free for two years, all of a sudden it is illegal. This industry has always had cycles 9-11 although unfortunate was another bump in the road. It might take awhile but there is jobs to be had if you want them bad enough. And yeah you may need to travel away to butt-f#*k nowhere to get them. Although there is bad operators like Sonic blue there seems to be an abundance of people took fill the positions. I bet if they opened up tomorrow again there would be a hundred resume's there. The flight schools should have a course called integrity 101 but I guess that would affect the bottom line.
Mike
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godsrcrazy
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I agree this hole thing is BS. I hate to throw stones here at a greifing parent or freinds. But if you realy wanted to do something you should have done it a long time ago. The father would have walked away and said nothing about this if Ed would have got the job he was going to interveiw for later in the week.
This hole thing turns my stomach and those that new and had proof and what to make yourself a hero telling everyone about the wrongs. I say shame on you for comming out after the fact. You deserve to stand in a court room right beside the owners and managers when the familys of the passengers start to sue.
END OF RANT
This hole thing turns my stomach and those that new and had proof and what to make yourself a hero telling everyone about the wrongs. I say shame on you for comming out after the fact. You deserve to stand in a court room right beside the owners and managers when the familys of the passengers start to sue.
END OF RANT
Lots of people who are desperate for experience, in alot of industries, if there's an impression that the experience you get will lead to a well paying job in the future. I'm aware of several colleges and universities where students have worked internships or co-op terms unpaid. When I took computer engineering, I graduated just as the high-tech bubble burst, and we had a similar situation to what pilots face: lots of inexperienced people, not many jobs, and employers without much money. Several of my classmates offered to work for free. The difference was that most of the companies had enough integrity to turn them down and not exploit them.CID wrote: Furthermore, what kind of person agrees to work for nothing. In ANY job?
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sky's the limit
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Wow,
Are you guys ever missing the point here.
This is a good country to live and work in for a reason - we have standards. It is here nor there that these guys worked for free, or that there are others doing so right now, what is important, is that we make sure these situations are not allowed to occur at all.
I'm assuming most, if not all you of you "experts" have never lived, or worked in so called Third World or Developing Nations. There is a reason we are different, primarly working conditions, and standards of conduct between employer/employee. Now I relize most of us have come by what we have rather easily, and that does not allow for an accurate view of the situation.(even the worst job in Canada is easy compared to things I have seen)
Allowing outfits like this, and half a dozen others I have had experiences with over the years, to continue operating is wrong - plain and simple.
How big were your balls at age 20 fresh out of highschool? How wise were you to the workings of the buisiness world while you were living at home and dreaming of airplanes every night? The answer is small, if existant at all, and very little. Laws for labour are there to protect people, in this case not just pilots, but paying passengers as well.
I think you people spouting off about how "they had a choice...etc etc," need to step back and start looking at this problem from something other than a monochromatic veiwpoint. These problems are not that simple, and I'm sick and tired of listening to you guys, many of you new to the industry, and self rightious, go off about these topics when you obviously choose not to look at all the angles.
I personally have been part of efforts to impove conditions of maintainance, wages, hours flown, flt duty etc, I have done it from a line position, and from a Manager's position. You go through that a few times and you learn pretty quickly that NOTHING is as simple as it looks, and there are people out there who would sell their Mother for an extra dollar, or hour, depending on what position in the company they occupy.
I can only wish Mr. Hugget all the luck in the world, and hope the rest of you who are presently working at outfits in Canada where the conditions are $shit, stand up and say something while someone is listneing, because this WILL be old news soon enough.
STL
Are you guys ever missing the point here.
This is a good country to live and work in for a reason - we have standards. It is here nor there that these guys worked for free, or that there are others doing so right now, what is important, is that we make sure these situations are not allowed to occur at all.
I'm assuming most, if not all you of you "experts" have never lived, or worked in so called Third World or Developing Nations. There is a reason we are different, primarly working conditions, and standards of conduct between employer/employee. Now I relize most of us have come by what we have rather easily, and that does not allow for an accurate view of the situation.(even the worst job in Canada is easy compared to things I have seen)
Allowing outfits like this, and half a dozen others I have had experiences with over the years, to continue operating is wrong - plain and simple.
How big were your balls at age 20 fresh out of highschool? How wise were you to the workings of the buisiness world while you were living at home and dreaming of airplanes every night? The answer is small, if existant at all, and very little. Laws for labour are there to protect people, in this case not just pilots, but paying passengers as well.
I think you people spouting off about how "they had a choice...etc etc," need to step back and start looking at this problem from something other than a monochromatic veiwpoint. These problems are not that simple, and I'm sick and tired of listening to you guys, many of you new to the industry, and self rightious, go off about these topics when you obviously choose not to look at all the angles.
I personally have been part of efforts to impove conditions of maintainance, wages, hours flown, flt duty etc, I have done it from a line position, and from a Manager's position. You go through that a few times and you learn pretty quickly that NOTHING is as simple as it looks, and there are people out there who would sell their Mother for an extra dollar, or hour, depending on what position in the company they occupy.
I can only wish Mr. Hugget all the luck in the world, and hope the rest of you who are presently working at outfits in Canada where the conditions are $shit, stand up and say something while someone is listneing, because this WILL be old news soon enough.
STL
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ScudRunner
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Few thoughts on this, Regarding money if it is recoverd how bought put it towards a scholarship program of some kind to help a brother out, Maybe name it in Ed's Memory. 
Second off I know some pilots who have been on the road trips, sent thousands of resume out and all the other things and have come up empty. After all that they come back and justify flying for free to get there foot in the door somewhere. Dont regard all these guys as Unwitting noobs, they know the industry and all the ins and outs. Of course they would prefer to get paid but just like everyone they have to do whats they feel is the best way to get ahead. And as long as operators like RXX are aloud to fly with TC and the labour board looking the other way this will continue to happen.
Second off I know some pilots who have been on the road trips, sent thousands of resume out and all the other things and have come up empty. After all that they come back and justify flying for free to get there foot in the door somewhere. Dont regard all these guys as Unwitting noobs, they know the industry and all the ins and outs. Of course they would prefer to get paid but just like everyone they have to do whats they feel is the best way to get ahead. And as long as operators like RXX are aloud to fly with TC and the labour board looking the other way this will continue to happen.
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wallypilot
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Problem is that as human beings we don't always do what is necessarily best for us. That's where government comes in to protect us from ourselves.
Without legislation to protect us from ourselves, corporations left unchecked would destroy the earth and their very customers that keep the corporations alive. More people would drive drunk, killing themselves and others. Aircraft, cars, and other equipment we rely on would be made too cheaply to be safe and reliable, killing thousands more of us. Many totally rational, smart individuals make bad or naive, or irresponsible decisions. So, while many of us would avoid Regency, and the whole working for free thing, there are thousands, upon millions of others in this world (again intelligent, rational folks) who unknowingly, or unadmittedly put themselves at risk in the short term for long term gain.
The government legislates , among lots of other things, safe working conditions in most industries. the laws are there, so why is it not enforced in the charter part of aviation? There should be clear cut, indisputable legislation in the aviation industry to fairly administer safety standards, work environments and fair pay.
I don't give carte blanche to the government to "protect us from ourselves". Rather, target the opportunities that exist that could potentially take advantage of the fact the we as human beings can be taken advantage of because of the above argument. See to it that people won't be exposed to such circumstances. Combine that with education at the grass roots level to ensure folks will have the perspective to see that you don't need to work for free to get ahead.
No disrespect to the RX pilot. I understand his plight in this industry. But hopefully we can learn from this whole mess.
Without legislation to protect us from ourselves, corporations left unchecked would destroy the earth and their very customers that keep the corporations alive. More people would drive drunk, killing themselves and others. Aircraft, cars, and other equipment we rely on would be made too cheaply to be safe and reliable, killing thousands more of us. Many totally rational, smart individuals make bad or naive, or irresponsible decisions. So, while many of us would avoid Regency, and the whole working for free thing, there are thousands, upon millions of others in this world (again intelligent, rational folks) who unknowingly, or unadmittedly put themselves at risk in the short term for long term gain.
The government legislates , among lots of other things, safe working conditions in most industries. the laws are there, so why is it not enforced in the charter part of aviation? There should be clear cut, indisputable legislation in the aviation industry to fairly administer safety standards, work environments and fair pay.
I don't give carte blanche to the government to "protect us from ourselves". Rather, target the opportunities that exist that could potentially take advantage of the fact the we as human beings can be taken advantage of because of the above argument. See to it that people won't be exposed to such circumstances. Combine that with education at the grass roots level to ensure folks will have the perspective to see that you don't need to work for free to get ahead.
No disrespect to the RX pilot. I understand his plight in this industry. But hopefully we can learn from this whole mess.
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Rubberbiscuit
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Ok! So are all of you here that are mocking Mr. Huggets decision gonna tell me that you have never had 20/20 hynesight? We don't know how much information or not his son gave his parents. Like any one else he probably expressed his worries but tried to avoid freaking them out! I think there is a chance the Father see's this as a the one way of getting at Sonic Blue and and hopefully give them the reputation they deserve.
My 2 cents.
My 2 cents.
"Nearly all safety regulations are based upon lessons which have been paid for in blood by those who attempted what you are contemplating" Tony Kern
What a ridiculous analogy.Those arguments are like saying to the tsunami victims they don't deserve any aid because they chose to live close to the sea
And yet another! It has little to do with a persons right to live by the sea shore or wear slutty clothes. It's all about risk management and liability you take on when you charge money for services....or that girl's clothing is provocative so she deserved to be raped.
Yes, in this country, a woman has the right to dress the way she wants and travel where she wants, but must understand that some combinations of dress and location are riskier than others.
Does the woman deserve to be raped? Of course not. Does she have a higher risk of being raped if she hangs around in a dark alley at midnight in a miniskirt? Damn right. Is it a smart thing to do? Hell no! So why do some women do it? I think most of us have seen such women and know exactly what they are up to.
So back to the issue at hand. Is it an acceptable risk to fly an aircraft when you suspect its unsafe? No. How about doing it with paying passengers? You don't want to hear my answer.
On thing for sure, the provocatively dressed young lady in the inner city alley has one thing in common with the copilots employed by the company in question. They are (were) probably both "whores".
As for Mr. Huggett's actions, I can't say I would do less if it was my son. Unfortunatly because of the circumstances, I think he has a long road ahead if he expects any sort of resolution to the matter without risking his own son's reputation.
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1LostPilot
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STC
It really makes me laugh when I read some of these posts - first of all there is all this talk about exposing Sonic Blue for what they are, and trying to make a change to things, so that Ed's legacy may live on and that people will learn. Then, as soon as somebody pro-actively starts to do something, as is Mr Huggett with the Labour Board and the non payment of wages, some so called deep thinkers of this forum jump on the bandwagon and start tearing the guy apart for trying to bring justice to something that was clearly wrong. Were guys naive to go into such an operation and fork over cash? Damn right they were. Were you ever naive, just after coming out of flight school finding yourselves in the difficult position of having to take the next step? (read this forum and you would assume that some of you were not!)
With the state of affairs as they are, if these guys can get some kind of financial pay back, then good luck to them. And maximum respect to Mr Huggett for his efforts. I hope he ignores some of the totally insensitive comments on this thread from those who find it all to easy to do so from the comfort of their keyboard with the risk of very little repercussion.
100% RIGHT ON STLI'm sick and tired of listening to you guys, many of you new to the industry, and self rightious, go off about these topics when you obviously choose not to look at all the angles.
CYYZ - take note, you insensitive ****Maybe there should be a new rule that states that posters must use the preview button first and give it a re-read. Might help.
It really makes me laugh when I read some of these posts - first of all there is all this talk about exposing Sonic Blue for what they are, and trying to make a change to things, so that Ed's legacy may live on and that people will learn. Then, as soon as somebody pro-actively starts to do something, as is Mr Huggett with the Labour Board and the non payment of wages, some so called deep thinkers of this forum jump on the bandwagon and start tearing the guy apart for trying to bring justice to something that was clearly wrong. Were guys naive to go into such an operation and fork over cash? Damn right they were. Were you ever naive, just after coming out of flight school finding yourselves in the difficult position of having to take the next step? (read this forum and you would assume that some of you were not!)
With the state of affairs as they are, if these guys can get some kind of financial pay back, then good luck to them. And maximum respect to Mr Huggett for his efforts. I hope he ignores some of the totally insensitive comments on this thread from those who find it all to easy to do so from the comfort of their keyboard with the risk of very little repercussion.
Last edited by 1LostPilot on Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
