Winter ski operating temps

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Lost Lake
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Winter ski operating temps

Post by Lost Lake »

Hi folks. I have lots of experience on floats but am virtually a virgin on light aircraft on skis. So I have a couple of questions.
1. On a day fishing trip, how long can I park a plane and what is the lowest temp I can expect without a heat source.

2. What is the best. way to keep the engine warm if I want to park on colder days.
3. If there's slush, tips for parking the plane. Cutting logs to fit under skis?

4. Any other tips?
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Bede
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by Bede »

1) What plane/engine? Get a good engine tent (and prop if you're really concerned). I generally say 0 to be safe but the Citabria I fly will start in -10, but I wouldn't let it get that cold in the bush. Best to just keep an eye on it and warm up as needed.

2) run the engine every few hours. You used to be able to buy gas only heaters that didn't need any electricity (northern companion if I recall). The key is lots of flow at lower temperatures as opposed to a really hot heater with little flow.

3) I use five foot long 2x4 (2 per ski+tail). I keep an extra 4' long one to act as a pry bar if needed.

4) getting stuck is a very real possibility. Have equipment you need to get unstuck. I have a 2x4, shovel. I'm never gone long enough to need a heat source.
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by A Regulator »

When i flew the various bush aircraft such as C185, DHC 2 and 3, i would tent the engines then depending on the temps would start rhem accordingly. Regarding slush I would circle the landing area to look at the conditions if obvious slush go some other place. If unsure Always would do a landing and power up to keep speed then you can tell if in slush then go around and land in yoir ski tracks. If you do get stuck in slush be prepared to cut some fur trees down and carry a hydraulic jack, shovel and put the fur trees with the brush under skis. Try to access the take off area also while shoveling dont get over heated but if it is taking a long time start to build a fire to stay warm.

If no slush always give your skis a good wack to break them loose with your boots or axe prior yo takeoff as if they are stuck you may not be able to move
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Lost Lake wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:18 pm Hi folks. I have lots of experience on floats but am virtually a virgin on light aircraft on skis. So I have a couple of questions.
1. On a day fishing trip, how long can I park a plane and what is the lowest temp I can expect without a heat source.

2. What is the best. way to keep the engine warm if I want to park on colder days.
3. If there's slush, tips for parking the plane. Cutting logs to fit under skis?

4. Any other tips?
1) As low as the ambient temp!

But in all seriousness, warm the engine up every 3-4 hours if you can. An engine blanket is your friend. A small propane heater will save your cold ass and your engine!

2) See point #1. Tent it and heat it before you crank.

3) Don’t even think about parking on slush. If you even think it may be a possibility get the f’ outta there and find another spot. (Steer clear of river/streams that outlet into a lake as well). Black/blue ice are to be avoided at all costs!

I personally never found the need to cut down timber unless I royally messed up and needed an anchor to use a « come along » to drag the machine out. Park it, wait 20 minutes and move it ahead a bit. Wait another 20 mins and repeat. (Ski flying is fun if you’re dressed properly and have ALOT of spare time)

4) Get some mentorship from an old experienced hand. There are a thousand and one tricks that you can learn from it. Bonus points if you can find a knowledgeable person to keep you out of trouble or work an aircraft out of a tight spot!

Off the top of my head:

Always plan on staying the night and plan accordingly.
An auger, winch/come along and bib overalls are prerequisites.

Have fun and good fish!

TPC
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Bede
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by Bede »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:17 pm Black/blue ice are to be avoided at all costs!
Sorry, why?
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by CruiserNU »

Ski flying can be a lot of fun.... until it isn't.

On floats you have a big advantage in that water is a known quantity: you can easily see the surface conditions and wind speed/direction from the air and can normally spot the shallow areas, obstructions and floating debris. On skis all that is out the window. You can't tell the snow texture with any degree of accuracy and you certainly can't tell the snow depth. An abundance of caution is required, much more so than when on floats. You can spot the drifts (at least the bigger ones) but are they soft or hard as concrete?

If you're going into a lake for the first time keep your load light. Drifts can be especially hard on the landing gear. On the second trip in (within a day or two) you'll be able to bring in a bigger load or decide not to go back.

If you fly in a "civilized" area you'll be less likely to get into a life-threatening position. If there are cabins and roads nearby and cell service is available you're pretty safe. I don't have that luxury. Best to fly with another airplane buddy if you're going into some place more remote, at least until you gain some experience.

If you even remotely suspect there may be slush -DON'T GO THERE. Believe me, if you get stuck (and you will if you fly long enough) you will never make that mistake again. Depending on how badly you're stuck, you would be well-advised to get the tent set up and a fire built BEFORE you get to work. Getting cold, wet, sweaty, tired and hungry is not a good situation to be in.

Light tail-dragger airplanes of the Piper Cub family (or similar) make the best ski-planes. Horsepower is good, but getting a 180 or 185 unstuck is not a chore for the weak of heart (literally!).

You'll need a good insulated engine cover. The very first thing you do after parking is to get that engine cover on. A prop cover is also a good idea, though not so much needed if you have a wood or composite prop.

Start the engine every one- to three hours, depending on the ambient air temperature, and run it until the oil temperature is in the green and you're sure that the alternator has replaced all the energy that was required for starting. Make sure you have a good battery and know how to hand-prop if you run out of juice.

If you're going into someplace remote you will need to carry A LOT of "stuff" to be safe; wing covers if you plan to stay over night, ice screws and rope for tie downs, shovel, come-along, all the usual winter survival gear and some very good winter clothes, including some water-proof boots. It wouldn't hurt to carry a method of heating the engine.

Beware of flat light conditions.

You may intend to just be out for the day but the situation/weather can change and you end up being there overnight. Be prepared!

Modern skis with UHMW bottoms won't get seriously "welded" to the snow, especially if you allow the skis to cool after landing, moving ahead a few feet, waiting, moving ahead a couple of more times, THEN parking. It doesn't hurt to put the skis up on something but that's not usually necessary.

Never park in or near slushy snow. Locate another parking spot, go to another lake, or go home. Overflow and slush, insulated from the air by the snow cover, can exist at any temperature, even down to minus 40. So don't assume that just because it's been cold that you are safe from this
hazard.

Small lakes are safer than large in the early winter, large lakes are safer than small in the late winter/early spring.

Rivers can be especially treacherous. I try to avoid them if possible.

Where I fly, the lakes are generally deep and the water is clear. Good ice that is free of snow will look black when seen from above, but how thick is it? That you can only estimate based on the weather conditions over the previous few days or weeks. Avoid any areas where streams enter or leave a lake. On large lakes there may be enough current in the narrow spots to keep the ice thin. I've been known to drop a five-pound boulder from the plane to confirm the thickness - but that's just me acting crazy!

In the fall and early winter, the ice is thickest near the shore and thinnest in the centre of the lake. In springtime the opposite is true.

Be especially cautious if there has been a heavy snowfall in the early winter before the ice thickens up. The weight of the snow will push the ice down and then conditions are ideal for overflow and slush near the centre of the lake.

The list of things you should carry is a long one. Most important - an Inreach device if you don't have cell service.

Entire books could be (and have been) written about ski-flying. If the risks are mitigated it can be a truly wonderful experience, notwithstanding the caveats implied above.
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Bede
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by Bede »

^ great post
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Bede wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:42 am
TeePeeCreeper wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:17 pm Black/blue ice are to be avoided at all costs!
Sorry, why?
I’ve found that it can be a good indicator of pooled water and or slush…
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sunk
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by sunk »

Bede wrote”Citabria I fly will start in -10”. That’s a very practice. Preheat the engine as starting in -10 will hurt your engine. We fly to -40 for work which I don’t recommend as it’s not fun at all. Watch out for rock hard snow drifts as it’s hard on the airplane. All points mentioned above are great points.
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by Bede »

sunk wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 pm Preheat the engine as starting in -10 will hurt your engine.
I know. I do. I'm just saying it will. Done it once because of issues with preheater.
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by PilotDAR »

The foregoing, plus:

If you can, fly with a second plane, so you can help each other - ideally, a more ski experienced pilot. Wear a floater snowmobile suit.

You really have to know the ice thickness, and type of ice. Clear ice is the strongest for sure. Milky ice can be okay, though can also be stratified, and contain soft spots, or a layer of water underneath. My best trick, for snow on ice, (or sandy beaches) is to pick my landing area. Assure it's at least twice as long as I think I'll need for takeoff. If you have an actual place to want to stop, it should be mid point. Touch down on mains only, and run the entire length you chose - you're both testing the surface,for suitability, and running the length to see that it's the same the whole length. Go around, and fly back over your tracks, any slushy spots? If so, don't land. Did it drag or feel funny any way along? You may not want to stop in it. Was it too rough? Then you really don't want to have to take off in it later. If you liked it, run it a couple of more times. The land short, and park on your tracks, a runway you know is ahead of you.

May sure that you've taken along with you: A light aluminum shovel (won't break in the cold, slight prying capability. a pry 2x4, some rope, a small bag of road sand/salt (the amount you'd like to spread on the ice you bared with the shovel, so you can stand well to hand prop it. and, an ice screw (or 3) so you can tie the plane down in the wind, or if you have to hand prop it. and ice screw looks like this:

Image

MEC is one source of them, very reassuring to have along.
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Lost Lake
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by Lost Lake »

Thanks for the tips. I fly in Northern Ontario. My main concern was minimum temps and timing to re-warm the engine. Aircraft is classed as a light homebuilt.
Safe flying!
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Re: Winter ski operating temps

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Re: Winter ski operating temps

Post by tractor driver »

Some great points being made here. As previously mentioned, flat light conditions can be a problem. I found yellow tinted glasses ( like the skiers use) helps to define the surface irregularities. Simple safety or shooting glasses are easy to wear.
G
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