Plane Share Dispute

[EdoKun]

Just want to see what other ideas maybe you guys have here that could help my situation.

I own 1/6 of a plane and unfortunately the 5/6 of us would like to kick this one person out due to the fact that this individual has been making unsafe decisions I.E flying in not optimal weather, unapproved modifications, etc.

Since our agreement doesn’t state a way to kick out someone or to resolve conflict we are currently stuck and don't know what to do…

We’ve tried to offer to buy their share of the plane but they are asking waaaay above market price and thats not worth it. Also we did bring up the option to sell the plane completely and split the money as well. Since this is a Civil matter TC doesn’t have any say in this matter.

So right now we are at a standstill, no one can fly the plane.

What can we do?

Thanks.

[Bonez]

I'd look closer at the agreement. Is the agreement legal? That's up to the courts to decide.

Is the pilot legally allowed to fly in unsafe weather?

What are the requirements for modifications?

In some cases, even outside of an agreement, an unreasonable use is not allowed.

[photofly]

Suck it up, pay what she’s asking, and write a better agreement next time. One sixth of the difference in price between what she thinks the plane is worth and what you all do, split five ways, is less than one tenth of the extra costs you’ll end up paying any other way out.

[rigpiggy]

Record every conversation. Try to do everything by written means, when this turns ugly, and it will make sure there is no he said she said

[digits_]

Increase the insurance coverage, let him fly in unsafe conditions and wait ?

[SeptRepair]

Increase the insurance coverage, let him fly in unsafe conditions and wait ?

HAHA, thats my first thought as well.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Suck it up, pay what she’s asking, and write a better agreement next time. One sixth of the difference in price between what she thinks the plane is worth and what you all do, split five ways, is less than one tenth of the extra costs you’ll end up paying any other way out.

/\ What he said

[JasonE]

If he's flying it under illegal unsafe conditions, just make a point of reporting a CADORs each time. Won't take too long to fix the situation.

But yeah 1/6th of a small plane slightly inflated shouldn't hurt too bad. Piece of mind is worth something....

[digits_]

I'd like to know what the unsafe conditions are though
Or pictures of the unapproved mods. Always sounds very exotic and exciting!

[AirFrame]

Consult with a lawyer. 5/6 of you constitutes an overwhelming majority... There should be something the group of you can do here. If you all agree on market value being X, he can't say it's 3X.

[digits_]

Consult with a lawyer. 5/6 of you constitutes an overwhelming majority... There should be something the group of you can do here. If you all agree on market value being X, he can't say it's 3X.

So they can vote that the market value is 1 dollar, and vote to force her to sell? Good luck doing that if it's not specified in their agreement.

The 6 ownership share setup sounds like a typical sub 100k airplane for PPLs (and I don't mean that in a bad way). But for easy numbers, let's say it's 120k. That's a 20k share per person.
If the others want to buy her out, it's 4k per person.

Le'ts say unsafe pilot is crazy and asks 50% more. That's a 30k share that needs to be bought out, making it 6k per person.

Is kicking the other person out worth 2k? If not, they are probably not causing that much of an issue. If it is, easy, problem solved, and the 6th pilot got a deal for being -allegedly- unsafe.

Not sure why, but apparently they can't fly the plane this till is resolved. Is 2k worth it to fly your plane again?

Note, for a 60k airplane, the 'crazy 50% markup price penalty' drops to 1k.

(just putting some numbers on what photofly already mentioned)

[Loon-A-Tic]

Why can't you fly the airplane, have the "modifications" invalidated the C of A ? If so the value of the airplane has been significantly reduced. Establish the market value of a "non-airworthy" airframe and buying the offending partner out.

[MattW]

One way to resolve this is called a shotgun clause which it sounds like you don't have but perhaps you could get it worked out. Basically, you say you don't want to be partners anymore and all interested parties submit a sealed bid for the plane shares. You don't want to lowball in this case because if anyone bids a penny higher you sold your shares too low, you want to bid a number you're comfortable paying and/or being payed. If you partner feels the plane is worth so much more they are welcome to bid on it at their perceived value. At the end of the day someone has the plane and someone has the money.

[Bede]

Depends on how much you want to spend fighting this. The fastest (and probably cheapest) is just pay him out what he's asking. Between the 5 of you, that will be easiest. The more complicated avenue is to send him a letter (or have your lawyer write a letter) saying that he has been removed from the partnership because he has reduced the value of the aircraft and it costs $X to repair the aircraft to an airworthy standard. The repair bill is equal (or more, or less) than the value of his share. IMO you'd likely prevail but not before spending tens of thousands in legal costs. Even though this isn't written in the contract, it would be equitable and more often than not, that's the way the law works in these sorts of disputes.

[trey kule]

Wow…

I had no idea Avcanada had so many legal experts.

But as an old cowboy once said, make sure you what you are hearing is coming from the horse’s mouth and not the other end.

My thoughts are that if you read through all the posts there seems to be some good advice, that, I would, in your situation, probably take. But some I think are coming from the wrong end of the horse.

Great place to get legal advice. A couple hundred (split 5 ways). To get a real lawyer to review your contract and give you advice.

[PilotDAR]

Some things are not perfect, and partnerships, particularly for airplanes are way up the list. Everyone starts out with the best of intentions, but it's not possible to assure it will continue that way. A good shotgun clause goes a long way, and during my only ever business partnership, I exercised it with honour, and it worked. But with six partners in a plane, I can't imagine how one would work well.

Though airplanes sometimes do appreciate, they are also consumable. You have to assume that's it's being consumed - either by use, or ownership, and its value reduced. In a partnership, it's being consumed faster. I've heard many satisfactory stories about airplane partnerships, and isn't that great - but they're still a gamble. Perhaps this gamble was not a winner.

If one partner has done something the effect of which is to render the plane unairworthy, does that not make them somehow responsible to make it right to the other partners? Accident = insurance claim, but deliberate modification? If a partnership agreement missed that, you really should have listened to Sheldon before putting your money in, cut your losses and keep life simple!

View this like other potential battles: You can choose to fight, or walk away. If you fight, what do you get if you win? What do you have to give up if you lose? Is what you could have to give up more than what you could win? If so, maybe don't fight. 'Sounds to me like that advice to pay out the one sixth inflated expectation is going to be cheaper and lower stress.

Or, agree that the plane is not airworthy, cannot be economically made to be so, and part it out....

[Bede]

Wow…

I had no idea Avcanada had so many legal experts.

A few of us have been through situations like this and have learned a few things over the years of dealing with lawyers.

Nothing against lawyers, but a lawyer who has never dealt with aviation is about as useless as...a random avcanada poster. By the time they get up to speed about what a Cof A is, approved mods, etc., you're in a few thousand and you still don't have an opinion.

[photofly]

A lawyer is going to do NOTHING for you in a tuppence-ha'penny thing like this except (if they're honest) tell you to get the hell of their office, and pay up to make the problem GO AWAY as soon as possible.

All a lawyer can do is help you negotiate a price to get out of this mess and...

We’ve tried to offer to buy their share of the plane but they are asking waaaay above market price

You already have a price. Now you say it's above market price but probably you don't know what market prices are doing at the moment, and it would be more honest to say it's waaaay above what you want to pay. Such is life. Pay it and move on. You can probably sell the 1/6 share to someone nice for nearly just as much, these days.

[Loon-A-Tic]

A lawyer is going to do NOTHING for you in a tuppence-ha'penny thing like this except (if they're honest) tell you to get the hell of their office, and pay up to make the problem GO AWAY as soon as possible.

All a lawyer can do is help you negotiate a price to get out of this mess and...

We’ve tried to offer to buy their share of the plane but they are asking waaaay above market price

You already have a price. So pay it and move on.

However apparently the partner may have invalidated the C of A with unapproved modifications thereby adversely effect the value of the airframe and effectively "grounded" the airplane for use by the remaining partners, so who pays who

[photofly]

Yeah, and that's exactly the kind of missing-the-point idiot thinking that keeps the airplane grounded for two and a half years, and everyone gives up flying.