DEC Westjet Swoop

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seriousflyer
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by seriousflyer »

Swoop CPT doesn't pay much higher than WS FO. So essentially WS FO step 4/5 your breaking even with swoop captain.
Especially if a pilot flows from encore to swoop because that pilot gets a retention bonus of $1200t/mth for 2 years.

Swoop Cpt is not easily commutatable. Also less resources in terms of crew support ans scheduling etc. (This might have changed recently since the startup has matured).

Employee match on paychecks is only 10%.

Schedule is max 18 days. (Not 16 days like mainline)

No biddle stats. (Less vacation allotment).

Also - layovers are less and usually not long.

Swoop positions are great for people that live in base and like 1 day or super efficient pairings. Also eager for quick upgrades.

The union hates swoop WAWCONs, so there is real momentum to equalize the pay and working conditions to mainline. This would trigger a rebid. Essentially moving all the super junior pilots that are holding captain into the right seat. The rebid would not force a bump down to encore. Is what I'm hearing.

Sorry not the most organized post. WS FO
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Dashdriver88
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Dashdriver88 »

cjet wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:49 am
Dashdriver88 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:53 pm
cjet wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:51 pm

70-90 hrs depending on how much reserve your assigned.

CJet
Hey CJet, last question. What type of bidding system do they have? Socialize like mainline?
Biding is completely different than mainline. 2 bid options are days off and check in and out times. Days off are awarded via seniority but Swoop uses a equilizer to distibute the flying. So all the pilots get equal flying then reserve is assigned in 1 day blocks to fill up your sked to 90 hrs. Swoop is currently short of pilots so not every one is getting reserve. I'm back a Mainline now so not sure of any changes since I left a few months ago.

Cjet
Thank you so much.
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imjustlurking
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by imjustlurking »

Col. Panic wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:17 am
imjustlurking wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:12 am
fish4life wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:57 am Ask yourself how good of a job is it when year 1 WJ FO’d don’t even want swoop cpt
Okay, so why would someone want WS FO over WO CPT?
Pay? Schedule? Career progression? Self respect?
Pay:
In the first two years of Swoop (freeze period), the difference is less than $800.
WestJet First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 64.91 x MMG (77.5 * 12 = 930) = $60,366.30
Step 2: 70.36 X MMG = $65,434.80
Total: $125,801.10

Swoop First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 59.84 x MMG = $55,651.20
Step 2: 74.62 x MMG = $69,396.60
Total: $125,047.80

First step captain at Swoop is $111.01 * MMG = $103,239.30
Third step FO at WestJet is $88.12 * MMG = $81,951.60
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:47 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:12 am
fish4life wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:57 am Ask yourself how good of a job is it when year 1 WJ FO’d don’t even want swoop cpt
Okay, so why would someone want WS FO over WO CPT?
Did you actually just ask that? And you wonder why people accuse you of trolling.
I'm here with open ears. I have yet to be told anything other than "you're a troll" and "Swoop is shit, what don't you understand?"


Schedule: Sounds like a lot of one-days. Some people like that, some don't.

Career progression: YOS and seniority accrue at Swoop. You're better off at Swoop than at Encore.

Self respect: I have yet to be convinced.
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slob driver
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by slob driver »

Imjustlurking,

The following are your calculations-

“Pay:
In the first two years of Swoop (freeze period), the difference is less than $800.
WestJet First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 64.91 x MMG (77.5 * 12 = 930) = $60,366.30
Step 2: 70.36 X MMG = $65,434.80
Total: $125,801.10

Swoop First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 59.84 x MMG = $55,651.20
Step 2: 74.62 x MMG = $69,396.60
Total: $125,047.80”


Your numbers are quite a ways off. You have missed a lot of total compensation for both sets of numbers. I have included a more holistic comparison of first two years of fo’s at WestJet and Swoop-

WestJet

Year 1- $64.92 x 930 wj mmg - $60,375.60 +12,075.12 (20% wsp)=
$72,450.72 total comp year 1

Year 2 $70.35 x930 wj mmg- $65,425.50 + $13,085.10 (20%) + $7,312 annual f/o cash bonus given to all wj fo’s except year one)=
$85,822.60 total comp year 2

Total minimum comp 1st two years as wj b737 fo- $158,273.32

Swoop

Year 1- 59.84x 900 wsw mmg- 53,856.00 + $5385.60 10% wsp=
$59,241.60 total comp year 1

Year 2- 74.62x900 wsw mmg- $67,158.00 + $6715.80 (10%)
$73,873.80 total comp year 2

Total minimum comp 1st two years at Swoop -$133,115.40

Wj 737 fo ahead of wsw 737 fo by $25,157.92 in first two years.

Worse per diems than wj, terrible benefits package versus wj, substandard rigs to wj, Substantially worse reserve system working more days versus wj, practically un-commutable. And the pay is better at Flair, Cargojet,Porter etc….
For me, all roads lead to other carriers that are hiring such as;

Flair
Cargojet
Porter
KFC
Canadian North
Morningstar

What is your position within the wj group? Are you management?
With the swoop wawcon, it wouldn’t surprise me if they’re having a recruiting problem and they might need some “cheerleading” to get people to come over.
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JBI
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by JBI »

imjustlurking wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:18 pm
Pay:
In the first two years of Swoop (freeze period), the difference is less than $800.
WestJet First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 64.91 x MMG (77.5 * 12 = 930) = $60,366.30
Step 2: 70.36 X MMG = $65,434.80
Total: $125,801.10

Swoop First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 59.84 x MMG = $55,651.20 $53,856
Step 2: 74.62 x MMG = $69,396.60 $67,158
Total: $125,047.80 = $121,014

First step captain at Swoop is $111.01 * MMG = $103,239.30
Third step FO at WestJet is $88.12 * MMG = $81,951.60
A few errors and clarifications:

1- MMG at Swoop is 75 hours, not 77.5 as a WJ. In your calculation, the difference would be: $4,787.10. Not huge, but more than $800.
2- There is no consideration to the substantial difference to the Savings plan matching. WJ is 20%, Swoop is 10%. For a third year FO, before tax, that's a difference of ~$8000 of additional compensation. Factored, very roughly, in the difference in the first two years, it adds to how much less Swoop Pilots are making by a difference of another ~$12,000.

Suddenly your $800 difference is actually closer to a $17,000 difference in pay over two years.

But wait, there's more!

3- The handling of vacation and biddable stats means that, roughly, Swoop gets two less weeks of vacation. Yes, in theory, you get paid stat pay, but ask anyone who has done both regular and biddable stats, and Biddle stats is better. More vacation time OR more days where, if you needed the money, you could pick up open time.

4- The significantly reduced bidding options at Swoop means a lot less control over your schedule.

5- While I'll admit that I do not keep up to date on the most recent Swoop Schedules, the "mostly single days" is a bit of a misnomer, while there seems to be a lot more than at WJ, still a pretty good mix of 1, 2 and 3 day pairings. Not 100% where things are at, but some of the early schedules had lots of 4 days with Red Eyes tacked on at the end.

6- Speaking of RED EYES - at Swoop you can't bid against them.

7- Have a look at the Swoop LOA, the first section outlines the numerous situations in which the WJ CBA does NOT apply. Good luck if you have any issues that you wish to resolve/grieve.


It doesn't mean that Swoop isn't the worst job out there. You get to fly a 737 and, even though there will be a lot of uncertainty, you get WJ seniority. However, the expansion of Swoop is antithetical to your career prospects as an Encore Pilot. In order for there to be true growth and career progression at the "WJ Group of Companies", it's important for there to be additional top end jobs: mainline 787 and 737 Captain jobs. The Pilot group does not have the same amount of retirements as AC does. Actual career progression to the higher paying positions will primarily come from the growth of 787s and WJ 737 flying. But, if the Company is primarily growing Swoop AND hiring outside Direct Entry Captains to Swoop, it is directly limiting your ability to eventually move into a WJ Captain seat or even a Swoop Captain seat.

There are way less WJ 737 Captain seats available and even if, in theory, you're fine with taking a Swoop Captain's seat, it will be for 737 wages WAY lower than what WJ Captain are making. For example, in the unlikely chance that you could upgrade after 3 years as an FO, at WJ, your Year 4 Captain's pay would be: $ 174.38 x 77.5 x 12 = $162,173.40 as compared to Swoop where you would start at First Year Captain's pay of: 111.01 x 75 x 12 = $99,909. So to be clear, without even counting the scheduling differences, the difference between a First year Captain who upgrades super early at year 4 between a 1st year Swoop Captain is $63,000 (+Savings match etc.) in a YEAR. As a Swoop Captain, you are flying the same plane, to (increasingly) the same destinations and routes as the WestJet Pilots yet you're doing it for $65,000+ a year LESS. I can very easily see why WJ Pilots are not happy about that.

Not only are you getting paid WAY less, you are directly reducing the number of those higher paying Captain jobs that, I'm assuming, you'd eventually like to hold.

I'll never judge anyone for trying to improve their career. I know some great people who, for various honest reasons, went to Swoop. COVID was tough on everyone and we're all in different spots. While you are entitled to your opinion, I'd respectfully suggest you spend a bit more time fully understanding the economics of the situation before you try to defend something on a Public forum that is actually far more complex than may appear. It does not help your position or the position of your fellow Encore Pilots.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

JBI wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:07 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:18 pm
Pay:
In the first two years of Swoop (freeze period), the difference is less than $800.
WestJet First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 64.91 x MMG (77.5 * 12 = 930) = $60,366.30
Step 2: 70.36 X MMG = $65,434.80
Total: $125,801.10

Swoop First Officer (2022)
Step 1: 59.84 x MMG = $55,651.20 $53,856
Step 2: 74.62 x MMG = $69,396.60 $67,158
Total: $125,047.80 = $121,014

First step captain at Swoop is $111.01 * MMG = $103,239.30
Third step FO at WestJet is $88.12 * MMG = $81,951.60
A few errors and clarifications:

1- MMG at Swoop is 75 hours, not 77.5 as a WJ. In your calculation, the difference would be: $4,787.10. Not huge, but more than $800.
2- There is no consideration to the substantial difference to the Savings plan matching. WJ is 20%, Swoop is 10%. For a third year FO, before tax, that's a difference of ~$8000 of additional compensation. Factored, very roughly, in the difference in the first two years, it adds to how much less Swoop Pilots are making by a difference of another ~$12,000.

Suddenly your $800 difference is actually closer to a $17,000 difference in pay over two years.

But wait, there's more!

3- The handling of vacation and biddable stats means that, roughly, Swoop gets two less weeks of vacation. Yes, in theory, you get paid stat pay, but ask anyone who has done both regular and biddable stats, and Biddle stats is better. More vacation time OR more days where, if you needed the money, you could pick up open time.

4- The significantly reduced bidding options at Swoop means a lot less control over your schedule.

5- While I'll admit that I do not keep up to date on the most recent Swoop Schedules, the "mostly single days" is a bit of a misnomer, while there seems to be a lot more than at WJ, still a pretty good mix of 1, 2 and 3 day pairings. Not 100% where things are at, but some of the early schedules had lots of 4 days with Red Eyes tacked on at the end.

6- Speaking of RED EYES - at Swoop you can't bid against them.

7- Have a look at the Swoop LOA, the first section outlines the numerous situations in which the WJ CBA does NOT apply. Good luck if you have any issues that you wish to resolve/grieve.


It doesn't mean that Swoop isn't the worst job out there. You get to fly a 737 and, even though there will be a lot of uncertainty, you get WJ seniority. However, the expansion of Swoop is antithetical to your career prospects as an Encore Pilot. In order for there to be true growth and career progression at the "WJ Group of Companies", it's important for there to be additional top end jobs: mainline 787 and 737 Captain jobs. The Pilot group does not have the same amount of retirements as AC does. Actual career progression to the higher paying positions will primarily come from the growth of 787s and WJ 737 flying. But, if the Company is primarily growing Swoop AND hiring outside Direct Entry Captains to Swoop, it is directly limiting your ability to eventually move into a WJ Captain seat or even a Swoop Captain seat.

There are way less WJ 737 Captain seats available and even if, in theory, you're fine with taking a Swoop Captain's seat, it will be for 737 wages WAY lower than what WJ Captain are making. For example, in the unlikely chance that you could upgrade after 3 years as an FO, at WJ, your Year 4 Captain's pay would be: $ 174.38 x 77.5 x 12 = $162,173.40 as compared to Swoop where you would start at First Year Captain's pay of: 111.01 x 75 x 12 = $99,909. So to be clear, without even counting the scheduling differences, the difference between a First year Captain who upgrades super early at year 4 between a 1st year Swoop Captain is $63,000 (+Savings match etc.) in a YEAR. As a Swoop Captain, you are flying the same plane, to (increasingly) the same destinations and routes as the WestJet Pilots yet you're doing it for $65,000+ a year LESS. I can very easily see why WJ Pilots are not happy about that.

Not only are you getting paid WAY less, you are directly reducing the number of those higher paying Captain jobs that, I'm assuming, you'd eventually like to hold.

I'll never judge anyone for trying to improve their career. I know some great people who, for various honest reasons, went to Swoop. COVID was tough on everyone and we're all in different spots. While you are entitled to your opinion, I'd respectfully suggest you spend a bit more time fully understanding the economics of the situation before you try to defend something on a Public forum that is actually far more complex than may appear. It does not help your position or the position of your fellow Encore Pilots.
Eloquent, accurate and educational as always JBI.
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sstaurus
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by sstaurus »

Sadly management is counting on pilots like imjustlurking who can't do their homework to figure out where they're really getting away with the cost savings. Bravo JBI and the previous poster.
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imjustlurking
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by imjustlurking »

sstaurus wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:43 pm Sadly management is counting on pilots like imjustlurking who can't do their homework to figure out where they're really getting away with the cost savings. Bravo JBI and the previous poster.
Complain about me all that you want, but I have done my research.

Swoop is a viable option for me and it is an option I am definitely looking at. I have no qualms about my stance. I also understand that I have a different outlook than others who have been at the company longer than I have. I support the opinions of my fellow pilots, but I refuse to be told that I cannot come to my own conclusions based on the information I have.

My opinion is still that Swoop pilots should be under the same contract as WestJet and the company should give Swoopsters the same pay, benefits, and scheduling rules and then hold a shuffle bid. I'm sure many of the pilots who are bitching today would bid for Swoop captain tomorrow if the change happened.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

imjustlurking wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:16 pm
sstaurus wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:43 pm Sadly management is counting on pilots like imjustlurking who can't do their homework to figure out where they're really getting away with the cost savings. Bravo JBI and the previous poster.
Complain about me all that you want, but I have done my research.

Swoop is a viable option for me and it is an option I am definitely looking at. I have no qualms about my stance. I also understand that I have a different outlook than others who have been at the company longer than I have. I support the opinions of my fellow pilots, but I refuse to be told that I cannot come to my own conclusions based on the information I have.

My opinion is still that Swoop pilots should be under the same contract as WestJet and the company should give Swoopsters the same pay, benefits, and scheduling rules and then hold a shuffle bid. I'm sure many of the pilots who are bitching today would bid for Swoop captain tomorrow if the change happened.
Yes. That's the entire f*cking point!

Also, please don't use the word "Swoopsters"...it makes people throw up a little in their mouth a little :wink:
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imjustlurking
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by imjustlurking »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:21 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:16 pm
sstaurus wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:43 pm Sadly management is counting on pilots like imjustlurking who can't do their homework to figure out where they're really getting away with the cost savings. Bravo JBI and the previous poster.
Complain about me all that you want, but I have done my research.

Swoop is a viable option for me and it is an option I am definitely looking at. I have no qualms about my stance. I also understand that I have a different outlook than others who have been at the company longer than I have. I support the opinions of my fellow pilots, but I refuse to be told that I cannot come to my own conclusions based on the information I have.

My opinion is still that Swoop pilots should be under the same contract as WestJet and the company should give Swoopsters the same pay, benefits, and scheduling rules and then hold a shuffle bid. I'm sure many of the pilots who are bitching today would bid for Swoop captain tomorrow if the change happened.
Yes. That's the entire f*cking point!

Also, please don't use the word "Swoopsters"...it makes people throw up a little in their mouth a little :wink:
I can't keep track of who hates me for what reason. Check my comment history... I keep repeating that Swoop pilots should have identical WAWCON to WestJet pilots. If people have a problem with bringing Swoop WAWCON up to the standard of WestJet, then I am at a loss as to what people are pissed off about.
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Col. Panic
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Col. Panic »

They don’t want to waste bargaining capital on making improvements at Swoop. They would rather just see it die entirely!
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Transition9er2 »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:21 pm Hahahahahahahaha. Did this guy actually just mention SPOT and LOMs? :lol:
Imjustlurking you're seriously missing some of the great points that people are bringing up, because your mind is already set in stone after your year or two at Encore. You're arguing with guys who've invested their whole careers at WJ; and a kid who's spent a year there trying to tell them that they have it all wrong about Swoop is frankly just embarrassing. I actually think they've been very patient in trying to educate you, in spite of the arrogant tone you've decided to take. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them of this one anymore.
Hahahaha oh this is epic!!

You all should ask Imjustlurking which airline they fly for. Better yet, ask them how many hours they have in their logbook. Clearly a subject matter expert here!

You’ll be delighted to see the replies. Go on, give it a shot haha

T.
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Last edited by Transition9er2 on Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by newlygrounded »

Maritimer wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:44 am Swoop isn’t going anywhere. Personally I am not willing to give up an ounce of negots capital on improving Swoop. It was designed to be the bottom of the barrel laughing stock that it is. It is scoped out as it is, it can’t grow past 30 and cannot have wide bodies.
HAHAHAHA yeah it also was scoped to exclude yyz and only have what like 6 tails? This industry is a joke, some people finally decide to strike (PAL) and the government steps in and says you can't strike, but if the airline breaks an agreement tough shit
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imjustlurking
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by imjustlurking »

Transition9er2 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:59 pm
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:21 pm Hahahahahahahaha. Did this guy actually just mention SPOT and LOMs? :lol:
Imjustlurking you're seriously missing some of the great points that people are bringing up, because your mind is already set in stone after your year or two at Encore. You're arguing with guys who've invested their whole careers at WJ; and a kid who's spent a year there trying to tell them that they have it all wrong about Swoop is frankly just embarrassing. I actually think they've been very patient in trying to educate you, in spite of the arrogant tone you've decided to take. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them of this one anymore.
Hahahaha oh this is epic!!

You all should ask Imjustlurking which airline they fly for. Better yet, ask them how many hours they have in their logbook. Clearly a subject matter expert here!

You’ll be delighted to see the replies. Go on, give it a shot haha

T.
imjustlurking wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:16 pm
sstaurus wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:43 pm Sadly management is counting on pilots like imjustlurking who can't do their homework to figure out where they're really getting away with the cost savings. Bravo JBI and the previous poster.
Complain about me all that you want, but I have done my research.

Swoop is a viable option for me and it is an option I am definitely looking at. I have no qualms about my stance. I also understand that I have a different outlook than others who have been at the company longer than I have. I support the opinions of my fellow pilots, but I refuse to be told that I cannot come to my own conclusions based on the information I have.

My opinion is still that Swoop pilots should be under the same contract as WestJet and the company should give Swoopsters the same pay, benefits, and scheduling rules and then hold a shuffle bid. I'm sure many of the pilots who are bitching today would bid for Swoop captain tomorrow if the change happened.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by FlyAlberta »

lostaviator wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:19 pm What worries me is that many fall back on the “they can only grow to 30” argument. Scope is embedded in CA1 which expires very soon. I can already hear their voices in arbitration “we need more swoop planes to recover from covid”. And with a wave of Kaplan’s magic wand, poof! More pink planes. I hope I’m wrong.
Don’t forget that per CA1 Encore is scoped to be able to expand to 100 tails between 78 turbo props and 76 seat RJs. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think they’re at 47 right now? So much focus on Swoop taking over mainline flying but guaranteed once Swoop is maxed out they’ll fully make use of that 100 tail scope. I’ve already heard rumours that the ELT has been pushing to get Encore to take over more flying but they simply can’t due to lack of crew.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by hsilgnepilot »

With this being a contract negotiations Year, is it realistic to expect an improvement to Swoop WAWCON?
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rudder
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by rudder »

I am guessing that the SW acquisition will solve the SWOOP staffing issues…..
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

rudder wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:08 am I am guessing that the SW acquisition will solve the SWOOP staffing issues…..
How so? The airlines will continue to operate independently. Unless they plan to shrink Swoop (thereby requiring fewer pilots), Swoop and Sunwing remain separate entities.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by rudder »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:40 am
rudder wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:08 am I am guessing that the SW acquisition will solve the SWOOP staffing issues…..
How so? The airlines will continue to operate independently. Unless they plan to shrink Swoop (thereby requiring fewer pilots), Swoop and Sunwing remain separate entities.
I had posted that prior to details.

Yes, current entities to remain separate. WJ will have to figure out how to manage available combined capacity and fleet. Certainly appears that WJ would like to allocate surplus WJ capacity from winter operations to meet SWG lift requirements (vs TUI dry lease).

There will be more shoes to drop if the deal receives regulatory approval.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ant_321 »

Do the westjet pilots have any scope protection in their contract? Can they buy another airline operating the same equipment and keep the companies and seniority lists separate? I was in on the swg town hall. They said the airlines would be ran separately, not that there would be separate pilot groups.
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