#EncoreFlowMoraleLow

[Apestogetherstrong]

PDF attached
Please share this with your friends, colleagues, WJ management, ALPA groups, p2p groups, ALPA reps and telegram chat group. We need better conditions/wages NOW! We need flow back and YOS!

[tbaylx]

Information on recruitment can be found on the Flair forums.

[PostmasterGeneral]

An encore pilot coming to Flair would be in the left seat in under two years if they had no previous jet time, 3 months if they did. Current upgrade minimums are 4000TT and 1 recurrent PPC for someone with no jet time.

Adjusted to reflect that in the attached. That's at the current payscales too, new contract negotiations are underway that will likely increase those numbers.

**EDIT** We welcome and encourage applications from Encore pilots looking to advance their careers and take advantage of rapid upgrade opportunites. The recruiting team is prioritizing interviews for those with Q400 and larger experience for hiring in 2022 and 2023

https://career.flyflair.com/jobs

Is Flair still asking for proof of resignation from another carrier if applying while on layoff?

[tbaylx]

An encore pilot coming to Flair would be in the left seat in under two years if they had no previous jet time, 3 months if they did. Current upgrade minimums are 4000TT and 1 recurrent PPC for someone with no jet time.

Adjusted to reflect that in the attached. That's at the current payscales too, new contract negotiations are underway that will likely increase those numbers.

**EDIT** We welcome and encourage applications from Encore pilots looking to advance their careers and take advantage of rapid upgrade opportunites. The recruiting team is prioritizing interviews for those with Q400 and larger experience for hiring in 2022 and 2023

https://career.flyflair.com/jobs

Is Flair still asking for proof of resignation from another carrier if applying while on layoff?

Yes. We hired limited numbers of experienced trainers last year from other airlines without requiring a resignation as other airlines weren't recalling and we were launching the airline. This year we're in a different spot in recruitment and we're interested in pilots that want to make this a longer-term home vs a place to wait out a recall.

[scdriver]

An encore pilot coming to Flair would be in the left seat in under two years if they had no previous jet time, 3 months if they did. Current upgrade minimums are 4000TT and 1 recurrent PPC for someone with no jet time.

Adjusted to reflect that in the attached. That's at the current payscales too, new contract negotiations are underway that will likely increase those numbers.

**EDIT** We welcome and encourage applications from Encore pilots looking to advance their careers and take advantage of rapid upgrade opportunites. The recruiting team is prioritizing interviews for those with Q400 and larger experience for hiring in 2022 and 2023

https://career.flyflair.com/jobs

Is Flair still asking for proof of resignation from another carrier if applying while on layoff?

Yes. We hired limited numbers of experienced trainers last year from other airlines without requiring a resignation as other airlines weren't recalling and we were launching the airline. This year we're in a different spot in recruitment and we're interested in pilots that want to make this a longer-term home vs a place to wait out a recall.

Is it a requirement to resign prior to applying, or just prior to accepting an employment offer?

[tbaylx]

Is Flair still asking for proof of resignation from another carrier if applying while on layoff?

Yes. We hired limited numbers of experienced trainers last year from other airlines without requiring a resignation as other airlines weren't recalling and we were launching the airline. This year we're in a different spot in recruitment and we're interested in pilots that want to make this a longer-term home vs a place to wait out a recall.

Is it a requirement to resign prior to applying, or just prior to accepting an employment offer?

We'd never ask anyone to resign a job prior to a firm offer of employment.

[Gregor]

Yes. We hired limited numbers of experienced trainers last year from other airlines without requiring a resignation as other airlines weren't recalling and we were launching the airline. This year we're in a different spot in recruitment and we're interested in pilots that want to make this a longer-term home vs a place to wait out a recall.

That's a great sentiment, but what if there is no long term? Market will be getting saturated quickly and at least one will close. Porter? Lynx? Flair? Transat trying to take more domestic slice?

I think a lot of guys even if they would otherwise want to stay for the long term, are pretty nervous about giving up their spots at their stable airlines to risk suddenly unemployed in 3 years.

Isn't 777 their aircraft lessor and also financial backer? There's lot of money in leasing, they probably just want to keep Flair running so they can keep a customer going and create their own orders for those 50 737s.... Pretty savvy of 777 to fabricate a market.
Isn't Flair already a couple hundred mil indebted to them at high rate as well?
All in all it sounds like an arrangement with no failsafe to me. The microsecond Flair doesn't look viable and maybe starts deferring payments, 777 would have cause to just pull the plug and those 737's would be leased in a heartbeat somewhere else in the New World. They don't care about Flair as a company at all.

I honestly hope for the best, for my sake possibly too. Tbaylx, there anything you can state that will insure guys that might cut their cord won't be on the street in a couple of years?

Is there an alternative arrangement like a bond or training payout instead? Most people will be back to work within 6 months, would be pretty crappy of anyone to leave just after finishing line indoc but I guess they're out there.

[tbaylx]

.

[Gregor]

There are no guarantees of anything in this industry. We have considered bonds but they have their own issues, we may consider them again in the future.

It's a risk/reward balance. The risk is that Flair isn't around 10 years from now, fair consideration. Although the same could be said about almost any Canadian carrier. The reward for those that are willing to accept that risk is good seniority, early upgrades, and a significant increase in earning potential.

Thank you for the reply. I'm more worried about 2 years than 10. Besides the overseas background folk like myself, and people hired from 703s or smaller 705 operators like Chrono, there are probably 4 major Canadian companies that pilots would leave from that would cause a dillema- Encore, Jazz, Sunwing and Air Transat. If they don't get an upgrade and the doors close in 2024 they're back to square 0 looking for work as a 1st year FO again, and it's been a tough past 2 years already with progression halted.
Any word on when the new contract will be published?

[SPR]

An encore pilot coming to Flair would be in the left seat in under two years if they had no previous jet time, 3 months if they did. Current upgrade minimums are 4000TT and 1 recurrent PPC for someone with no jet time.

Adjusted to reflect that in the attached. That's at the current payscales too, new contract negotiations are underway that will likely increase those numbers.

**EDIT** We welcome and encourage applications from Encore pilots looking to advance their careers and take advantage of rapid upgrade opportunites. The recruiting team is prioritizing interviews for those with Q400 and larger experience for hiring in 2022 and 2023

https://career.flyflair.com/jobs

I think you're being disingenuous to try to poach pilots. Your amended version of the chart shows one year spent at Encore, and then an upgrade occurring in the second year at Flair. Considering the experience levels Encore is likely to attract, especially if they're comparable to those in 2018 and 2019, and the fact that the chart is predicated on these statements: "Typically Encore pilots are hired at 1,000 hours. Typically Swoop/Flair/AT pilots are hired at 1,500 hours." there's no way anyone with that kind of background will experience the career progression that you're hinting at. You stated that upgrades at Flair require 4000 hours and a recurrent PPC, so are you suggesting that Flair pilots can fly 2500 hours in two years? If Encore actually does hire as low as 250, it's going to be five or six years before they'll be qualified to be in the left seat at Flair.
Alternatively, perhaps you're trying to steal experienced captains who would be able to upgrade after one recurrent, but in that case the chart shouldn't go $42264 -> $67132 -> $114528; they'll have been at Encore for at least four years, so it should be $42264 -> $76,122 -> $78,039 -> $80,424, plus per diems, plus 10% RRSP match -> $67132. At least acknowledge that there will be a 17% pay cut instead of trying to present it like ever-rising wages. Also, the way you've written the chart is based on someone having 705 jet time, which almost no one at Encore does, so they'll then spend another two years in the right seat at Flair.

[tbaylx]

.

[tbaylx]

There are no guarantees of anything in this industry. We have considered bonds but they have their own issues, we may consider them again in the future.

It's a risk/reward balance. The risk is that Flair isn't around 10 years from now, fair consideration. Although the same could be said about almost any Canadian carrier. The reward for those that are willing to accept that risk is good seniority, early upgrades, and a significant increase in earning potential.

Thank you for the reply. I'm more worried about 2 years than 10. Besides the overseas background folk like myself, and people hired from 703s or smaller 705 operators like Chrono, there are probably 4 major Canadian companies that pilots would leave from that would cause a dillema- Encore, Jazz, Sunwing and Air Transat. If they don't get an upgrade and the doors close in 2024 they're back to square 0 looking for work as a 1st year FO again, and it's been a tough past 2 years already with progression halted.
Any word on when the new contract will be published?

Contract negotiations are underway. Hopefully by spring.

[SPR]

An encore captain with 4000+ hours and no 705 jet time would be eligible for an upgrade in 6 months after a recurrent PPC. A 3000 pilot would require 2 years to gain the 4000 min for an upgrade.

That statement contradicts this earlier one you made:

An encore pilot coming to Flair would be in the left seat in under two years if they had no previous jet time, 3 months if they did.

The latter doesn't say anything about total time, just jet time, but the former only refers to total time. Are you basing the two year time frame on how long it would take to get 500 hours of 705 jet time, or 4000TT? If it's 4000 TT, wouldn't it depend on how much they come in with, rather than giving a time frame of either three months or two years, and apparently nothing in between? If someone starts with 3500, will it be two years, or however long it takes to get to 4000TT?

In any case, none of that addresses the modifications you made to the chart regarding pay. No one is going from $42264 to $67132 to $114528, so I think the way you've presented it is deliberately misleading to try to attract disenchanted Encore pilots.

[tbaylx]

.

[flyinhigh]

An encore captain with 4000+ hours and no 705 jet time would be eligible for an upgrade in 6 months after a recurrent PPC. A 3000 pilot would require 2 years to gain the 4000 min for an upgrade.

That statement contradicts this earlier one you made:

An encore pilot coming to Flair would be in the left seat in under two years if they had no previous jet time, 3 months if they did.

The latter doesn't say anything about total time, just jet time, but the former only refers to total time. Are you basing the two year time frame on how long it would take to get 500 hours of 705 jet time, or 4000TT? If it's 4000 TT, wouldn't it depend on how much they come in with, rather than giving a time frame of either three months or two years, and apparently nothing in between? If someone starts with 3500, will it be two years, or however long it takes to get to 4000TT?

In any case, none of that addresses the modifications you made to the chart regarding pay. No one is going from $42264 to $67132 to $114528, so I think the way you've presented it is deliberately misleading to try to attract disenchanted Encore pilots.

Direct entry captains require 500 hours on jet, once you've been hired by the company the upgrade requirements are 4000TT and a recurrent PPC. If an FO at Encore had 3500-4000 hours they'd be able to upgrade in 6-12 months. If they were an Encore captain then the appropriate captain scales would apply. The point of the chart modification was that no one coming to Flair with 3000+ (our current hire target) hours is going to remain an FO for longer than 12 months if they're capable of upgrading. so captain payscales will apply after year 1.

Either way career progression and seniority is much faster at a young rapidly growing airline than a legacy carrier with 10 year + upgrade times. Some pilots may wish to stay with the established legacy carrier, others may want to take advantage of the opportunities elsewhere. Not just at Flair, although we'd love to see experienced Encore pilots making the jump.

Your ad says 500 Jet PIC, but you say here 500 jet. Which is it? Based on that, would it be reasonable for an FO from Transat, Jazz, etc to be able to get DEC?

[tbaylx]

That statement contradicts this earlier one you made:



The latter doesn't say anything about total time, just jet time, but the former only refers to total time. Are you basing the two year time frame on how long it would take to get 500 hours of 705 jet time, or 4000TT? If it's 4000 TT, wouldn't it depend on how much they come in with, rather than giving a time frame of either three months or two years, and apparently nothing in between? If someone starts with 3500, will it be two years, or however long it takes to get to 4000TT?

In any case, none of that addresses the modifications you made to the chart regarding pay. No one is going from $42264 to $67132 to $114528, so I think the way you've presented it is deliberately misleading to try to attract disenchanted Encore pilots.

Direct entry captains require 500 hours on jet, once you've been hired by the company the upgrade requirements are 4000TT and a recurrent PPC. If an FO at Encore had 3500-4000 hours they'd be able to upgrade in 6-12 months. If they were an Encore captain then the appropriate captain scales would apply. The point of the chart modification was that no one coming to Flair with 3000+ (our current hire target) hours is going to remain an FO for longer than 12 months if they're capable of upgrading. so captain payscales will apply after year 1.

Either way career progression and seniority is much faster at a young rapidly growing airline than a legacy carrier with 10 year + upgrade times. Some pilots may wish to stay with the established legacy carrier, others may want to take advantage of the opportunities elsewhere. Not just at Flair, although we'd love to see experienced Encore pilots making the jump.

Your ad says 500 Jet PIC, but you say here 500 jet. Which is it? Based on that, would it be reasonable for an FO from Transat, Jazz, etc to be able to get DEC?

Sorry for the confusion, my fault, DEC is 500 PIC on jets. A Transat FO or anyone else with 4000+ could expect an upgrade after their first recurrent.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Anyone looking to come to Encore right now, give this topic a good read. If you have a 1000 hours just wait it out till you get 1500. Apply to WJ or Swoop directly then. Its all max duty days with low pay here. Lots of experienced guys are leaving. Flow is non existent. Avg 8-10 spots a month! Last bid was 8. Thats a shame!!!

Roughly 550 pilots at Encore. If you join now, and they flow 8 a month, it will take you 6-7years to flow(if you’re lucky) When you do flow, You start as year one FO at Swoop or mainline. All the time I gave to this company, yet OTS guys with half my hours are going directly on right seat at mainline and will get YOS. You guys have been warned again!

Captain John Cena

[ASSAM]

Anyone looking to come to Encore right now, give this topic a good read. If you have a 1000 hours just wait it out till you get 1500. Apply to WJ or Swoop directly then. Its all max duty days with low pay here. Lots of experienced guys are leaving. Flow is non existent. Avg 8-10 spots a month! Last bid was 8. Thats a shame!!!

Roughly 550 pilots at Encore. If you join now, and they flow 8 a month, it will take you 6-7years to flow(if you’re lucky) When you do flow, You start as year one FO at Swoop or mainline. All the time I gave to this company, yet OTS guys with half my hours are going directly on right seat at mainline and will get YOS. You guys have been warned again!

Captain John Cena

Thanks for the heads up. No wonder they just reposted Encore FOs on the 20th. 7 years is a long time for real. Much appreciated

[Canadaflyer46]

With the PTA looking likely to be torn up soon, Encore is looking even more bleak. Go to Jazz and actually be treated like a professional. Oh, and you’ll be at mainline AC in 3 years unless you screw the interview up.

[goingmissed]

With the PTA looking likely to be torn up soon, Encore is looking even more bleak. Go to Jazz and actually be treated like a professional. Oh, and you’ll be at mainline AC in 3 years unless you screw the interview up.

Is there something that you know that the rest of us don't?

There's a petition to cancel the PTA, but that still needs to be approved by the MEC and then sent to a general vote. I doubt that the majority of WJA/WSW pilots are in favour of cancelling the PTA.

[lostaviator]

With the PTA looking likely to be torn up soon, Encore is looking even more bleak. Go to Jazz and actually be treated like a professional. Oh, and you’ll be at mainline AC in 3 years unless you screw the interview up.

Is there something that you know that the rest of us don't?

There's a petition to cancel the PTA, but that still needs to be approved by the MEC and then sent to a general vote. I doubt that the majority of WJA/WSW pilots are in favour of cancelling the PTA.

Things definitely seem different this time around and it won't take much to push the vote over the cancel line. Remember - it took 2 tries to get the pta through and the second (successful) time was heavily influenced by the wj pilots being bribed with an option settlement attached.

[goingmissed]

Things definitely seem different this time around and it won't take much to push the vote over the cancel line. Remember - it took 2 tries to get the pta through and the second (successful) time was heavily influenced by the wj pilots being bribed with an option settlement attached.

That's a weak argument and we both know it.

What you are suggesting is to revoke an agreement after having benefited from both the 'option settlement' that you have stated and the agreement itself.

What does a WestJet pilot have to gain from the PTA being revoked, or lose from it remaining?

[FlyAlberta]

I actually feel like the pilot group stands to benefit from it being cancelled. All pilots currently on the list are protected. It immediately forces the company’s hand to do something about it as the resume pile disappears. With a potential SWG pilot merger in the near future, Encore pilots stand to be at the most risk of getting screwed. Now is the time to cancel and get the common employer talks going again. Pretty much every other employee group (aside from FA’s) have already merged to common employer with mainline (dxp, mcc, etc…). Eliminate the grey areas with the pta and eliminate any risk to encore pilots with a merger. If for whatever reason the company shoots itself in the foot and still does not entertain common employer, expect a SIGNIFICANT pay raise for Encore pilots.

MO

[Canadaflyer46]

I actually feel like the pilot group stands to benefit from it being cancelled. All pilots currently on the list are protected. It immediately forces the company’s hand to do something about it as the resume pile disappears. With a potential SWG pilot merger in the near future, Encore pilots stand to be at the most risk of getting screwed. Now is the time to cancel and get the common employer talks going again. Pretty much every other employee group (aside from FA’s) have already merged to common employer with mainline (dxp, mcc, etc…). Eliminate the grey areas with the pta and eliminate any risk to encore pilots with a merger. If for whatever reason the company shoots itself in the foot and still does not entertain common employer, expect a SIGNIFICANT pay raise for Encore pilots.

MO

Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately your "shooting themselves in the foot" theory is the most likely. With the way things are ran currently if the PTA disappears I'd expect the company to say "we're not negotiating anything until the next contract talks", and then watch surprised as all their pilots leave and aircraft are parked.

[goingmissed]

Why do I doubt that either of you are Encore pilots and that your "best intentions" for Encore pilots start with your own best interests first?