#EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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sstaurus
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by sstaurus »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:19 pm
goleafsgo wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:32 pm
Mach1 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:47 pm WestJet pay maths lesson 1.

Gross pay (It looks like a reasonable number)
less 20% WSP (WestJet Savings Program... the ESPP replacement) contribution
plus companies 20% match (You have now put 40% of your gross pay in savings)
less Income taxes (35% to 45%)
less other deductions
= Net pay of 20% to 30% of your gross pay
Can you decide to not contribute any to the 20% WSP and just have that amount added to your cheques?
Sure, you can, but then you're giving up free money.

Think of it as delayed income... if you make $100,000 per year, you'd be giving up $20,000 in match.
In fact the company banks on that, because a surprisingly significant amount of pilots don’t take full advantage. I can only assume they like tossing free money, because they have too many monthly payments to manage.
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FL030
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by FL030 »

sstaurus wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:54 am they like tossing free money
Yeah I'm sure they love it :roll:
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sstaurus
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by sstaurus »

Poor phrasing on my part. The point is, it's worth rearranging whatever is necessary to not give up that free money.
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aerobod
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by aerobod »

From the start of WS until the Onex takeover, there was always a term used - "WestJet Poor" - that referred to the 16 month period from start of maxing out the ESPP contribution until the first shares could effectively be cashed. As you only had 4 free share sells per year, you had to build up 3 months of purchase, then wait for a year for them all to become available, followed by a few weeks for them to be sold and the proceeds transferred and available in your bank account. I'm assuming Onex substitution of ETFs for the WS shares will fundamentally continue the process in a similar way, but with less share volatility.

This is a situation that all employees faced, when I recruited people to my teams I would always explain this process to interviewees, very few didn't take the job offer because of this. The mitigating process was typically to take a loan or line of credit for the 16 months, minimise expenditures and holidays for that period, then pay back the borrowed money over a couple of years after the shares were available for sale. RRSP contributions for a portion reduce the tax pain.

After the "poor" period and payback of any borrowed money, the cash flow and typical average gain on the shares was good, as the tax burden was lessened for capital gains versus all compensation being taxed at full marginal rates. In 12 tax years at WS I did have 2 years were I sold shares at a loss and accumulated a capital loss, but the rest of the time produced decent capital gains. Everyone who had WS shares cashed out in the Onex purchase in 2019 dodged a massive disaster due to Covid, if the deal had been completing 6 months later, I'm sure Onex would have walked away, leaving the WS share worth maybe 20% of the pre Covid value for a long period, as opposed to the 60% or so gain that the deal provided.
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imjustlurking
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by imjustlurking »

sstaurus wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:54 am
imjustlurking wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:19 pm
goleafsgo wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:32 pm

Can you decide to not contribute any to the 20% WSP and just have that amount added to your cheques?
Sure, you can, but then you're giving up free money.

Think of it as delayed income... if you make $100,000 per year, you'd be giving up $20,000 in match.
In fact the company banks on that, because a surprisingly significant amount of pilots don’t take full advantage. I can only assume they like tossing free money, because they have too many monthly payments to manage.
The initial hit hurts, but when you're making back that money in the next year, you income begins to rise quickly.
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Mach1
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by Mach1 »

aerobod wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:12 pm From the start of WS until the Onex takeover, there was always a term used - "WestJet Poor" - that referred to the 16 month period from start of maxing out the ESPP contribution until the first shares could effectively be cashed. As you only had 4 free share sells per year, you had to build up 3 months of purchase, then wait for a year for them all to become available, followed by a few weeks for them to be sold and the proceeds transferred and available in your bank account. I'm assuming Onex substitution of ETFs for the WS shares will fundamentally continue the process in a similar way, but with less share volatility.

This is a situation that all employees faced, when I recruited people to my teams I would always explain this process to interviewees, very few didn't take the job offer because of this. The mitigating process was typically to take a loan or line of credit for the 16 months, minimise expenditures and holidays for that period, then pay back the borrowed money over a couple of years after the shares were available for sale. RRSP contributions for a portion reduce the tax pain.
I've never heard the term "WestJet Poor" before. The pay structure was explained to me so I knew what I was getting into. It seems that somewhere along the line they stopped explaining the pay system or people stopped listening.

As for the ETF plan, it was forced on WJ by the arbitrator. It was a compromise that the company really didn't want.
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imjustlurking
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by imjustlurking »

Mac08 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:56 am
imjustlurking wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:18 pm
pacman007 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:40 pm

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course
Before you go tooting the Air Canada horn, go take a look at the AC subforum here.
As a long time "lurker" seeing some of your posts I gathered you're a early 20 year old living of the Kool-Aid of Encore... Now in bed with someone from management or have a gun to your head every time you login. Actually I'm going with you sign in from the company iPad thinking Westjet tracks your post.

AC might be bad, yeah we're not perfect, but how many Encore pilots have you flown that have came from Air Canada or Jazz with the hopes of being a 737 captain at Westjet? There's a reason why you hear of Encore/Westjet pilots going to Air Canada/Jazz and not the other way around. I've actually NEVER heard of anyone going from Red to Teal. Don't think the AC subforum is stopping anyone.

Honestly Westjet Management sucks. Plain and Simple. Before COVID it was seeing how fast they could cut paycheques while giving themselves the extra they shaved off. The fact you can have the Airports Executive say on a company webinar - Hey Tier 1 bases, you're not being outsourced, but I've said that we wouldn't outsource before and look what happened. Like who does that?

Before you tell me I'm unhappy I should leave. I already did. I was one of the many Westjetters that realized the gold standard in Canada is Red. The worst part is I have a lot of friends still at Westjet. Amazing people - FA's, MTCE, CSA's, etc who are so demoralized because Westjet keeps screwing them harder than AC management could dream of. So keep doing you, flying and do what you want, but don't ever openly say AC is near WJ without looking like a fool.
Early 20 year old -- nope
Living the koolaid of Encore -- nope
Now in bed with someone from management -- nope
Signing in from my company iPad -- nope
WestJet management sucks -- somewhat agree
Gold standard in Canada is Red -- disagree

Sure, WJ sucks right now, but to say that AC is the gold standard is like saying that Tim Hortons is the best Canadian coffee chain.
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ant_321
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by ant_321 »

Mach1 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:41 am
aerobod wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:12 pm From the start of WS until the Onex takeover, there was always a term used - "WestJet Poor" - that referred to the 16 month period from start of maxing out the ESPP contribution until the first shares could effectively be cashed. As you only had 4 free share sells per year, you had to build up 3 months of purchase, then wait for a year for them all to become available, followed by a few weeks for them to be sold and the proceeds transferred and available in your bank account. I'm assuming Onex substitution of ETFs for the WS shares will fundamentally continue the process in a similar way, but with less share volatility.

This is a situation that all employees faced, when I recruited people to my teams I would always explain this process to interviewees, very few didn't take the job offer because of this. The mitigating process was typically to take a loan or line of credit for the 16 months, minimise expenditures and holidays for that period, then pay back the borrowed money over a couple of years after the shares were available for sale. RRSP contributions for a portion reduce the tax pain.
I've never heard the term "WestJet Poor" before. The pay structure was explained to me so I knew what I was getting into. It seems that somewhere along the line they stopped explaining the pay system or people stopped listening.

As for the ETF plan, it was forced on WJ by the arbitrator. It was a compromise that the company really didn't want.
I always heard the saying “T4 rich, cash flow poor”.
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currysonic
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by currysonic »

imjustlurking wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:49 pm
sstaurus wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:54 am
imjustlurking wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:19 pm

Sure, you can, but then you're giving up free money.

Think of it as delayed income... if you make $100,000 per year, you'd be giving up $20,000 in match.
In fact the company banks on that, because a surprisingly significant amount of pilots don’t take full advantage. I can only assume they like tossing free money, because they have too many monthly payments to manage.
The initial hit hurts, but when you're making back that money in the next year, you income begins to rise quickly.
Not in WJ but my new current company is doing something similar. Just wonder since I'm new to this; If I contribute $5000 and my company contributes $5000 to my RRSP, would I be able to claim $10,000 on RRSP contributions for the 2022 tax year? Much Thanks! RRSP contribution tax return into TFSA is one of my "minimize paying taxes while securing retirement" strategies.
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rudder
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by rudder »

currysonic wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:20 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:49 pm
sstaurus wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:54 am

In fact the company banks on that, because a surprisingly significant amount of pilots don’t take full advantage. I can only assume they like tossing free money, because they have too many monthly payments to manage.
The initial hit hurts, but when you're making back that money in the next year, you income begins to rise quickly.
Not in WJ but my new current company is doing something similar. Just wonder since I'm new to this; If I contribute $5000 and my company contributes $5000 to my RRSP, would I be able to claim $10,000 on RRSP contributions for the 2022 tax year? Much Thanks! RRSP contribution tax return into TFSA is one of my "minimize paying taxes while securing retirement" strategies.
Employer contributions to either registered pension or RRSP accounts are not tax deductible for the beneficiary.
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sstaurus
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by sstaurus »

Well, they count towards your limit (as far as I know), but you don’t get any ‘refund’ because you paid no tax at source.
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aerobod
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by aerobod »

The company share contribution can be RRSP eligible if the account they contribute to is setup correctly. I don’t know how WS is setup now with Onex, but prior to the Onex takeover and before I retired from WS in 2018, the share administrator was AST Financial. AST was able to provide both RRSP and non-RRSP accounts. You used to be able to specify the split between the two accounts, which AST would apply both employee and company contribution between them for each payroll contribution. It was up to the employee to ensure you didn’t over contribute above your RRSP limit.

Additionally People could be instructed at the beginning of the year (I actually used to send an email in Dec before the start of the next year) to deduct at source from each pay cheque less tax relative to the RRSP contribution you were making, basically you gave them half of the actual amount to allow for the same amount to be reduced for the company matching contribution. Once the Onex EFT ESPP shares have become available for sale after 12 months you can transfer them to any other RRSP account to allow selling within the RRSP for investment in other instruments if desired (subject to any EFT back-end sales charges). You can provide the destination financial institution and RRSP account details to the current WS ESPP plan administrator for the transfer to be completed.
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currysonic
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by currysonic »

sstaurus wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:11 pm Well, they count towards your limit (as far as I know), but you don’t get any ‘refund’ because you paid no tax at source.
That's what I thought, even though I really wished otherwise :lol: Thanks for the reply!
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Apestogetherstrong
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

:smt014 Anyone looking to come to Encore right now, give this topic a good read. If you have a 1000 hours just wait it out till you get 1500. Apply to WJ or Swoop directly then. Its all max duty days with low pay here. Lots of experienced guys are leaving. Flow is non existent. Avg 8-10 spots a month! Last bid was 8. Thats a shame!!!

Roughly 550 pilots at Encore. If you join now, and they flow 8 a month, it will take you 6-7years to flow(if you’re lucky) When you do flow, You start as year one FO at Swoop or mainline. All the time I gave to this company, yet OTS guys with half my hours are going directly on right seat at mainline and will get YOS. You guys have been warned again! :goodman:

Captain John Cena :smt040

One last thing. Mr Swallow, instead of creating division amongst pilot groups, try to come up with stuff which benefits all. I think you need a hobby :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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ads-b
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by ads-b »

What we need is to get all the unions together and come up with minimum pay for all types of aircraft. Then hand it to our employers and say here’s what it costs. Take it or leave it. After seeing the latest United pay scale I was sick. Aviation in Canada is ass backwards.
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Roundel Randy
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by Roundel Randy »

Out of curiosity, what is the pay scale at Encore these days? What's the upgrade time captain like?
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Babar350
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by Babar350 »

Roundel Randy wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:23 pm Out of curiosity, what is the pay scale at Encore these days? What's the upgrade time captain like?
Upgrades are mostly ruled by the minimum of 2000TT and 500hrs of 705 time with an ATPL.
People with less than 6 months seniority are awarded a command course for September.
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fish4life
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by fish4life »

Genuinely curious as people are saying they are flowing 8/ month. Is that a lot lower that’s what they used to flow before the Covid shit show? What would a normal amount have been?

As an outsider it seems close to the same ratio as jazz in that 20 ish percent range
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

fish4life wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:07 am Genuinely curious as people are saying they are flowing 8/ month. Is that a lot lower that’s what they used to flow before the Covid shit show? What would a normal amount have been?

As an outsider it seems close to the same ratio as jazz in that 20 ish percent range
In 2018 41 pilots flowed from Encore to WJ. In 2019 it was 67.
The requirements to upgrade have been dropped so low it’s actually shocking, hopefully that keeps the company from getting so short on captains that they have to stop flow again as they’ve had to do in the past.
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Schooner69A
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Re: #EncoreFlowMoraleLow

Post by Schooner69A »

"One last thing. Mr Swallow, instead of creating division amongst pilot groups, try to come up with stuff which benefits all. I think you need a hobby"


I have a hobby. After 45 years of gainful employment, I built an RV-7A in which I've managed to fly about 100 hours a year. Why would you make such a comment?
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