PPC Buying Infidels.

Doctor Evil · Post by **Doctor Evil** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:39 am

I know this topic has been beaten to death over the years but here we go. I understand the whole concept of not being a bunch of prostitutes with wings who will "fly for food" and so on but I would like someone to explain how a person who spends his own money to get a PPC is any different than a person who spends money to get a Multi-IFR, a law degree or pays to learn a trade.Are they not all just making themselves more employable by increasing their qualifications?

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:22 am

Your employer should be responsible for training you on their equipment. They can afford the plane, they can afford the training.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:24 am

Sulako wrote:Your employer should be responsible for training you on their equipment. They can afford the plane, they can afford the training.

Who are you to tell someone what they can afford?

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:35 am

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:52 am

altiplano wrote: I used to not care, but now I get it. @#$! PPC's and all operators that list them as required/desired for prospective employess. All operators should be made to adhere to a minimum amount of required training irregardless of paper in hand...

TC will not approve an operations manual that does not require initial training for new hires, irrelavent if they arrive with ppc or not. Arriving with the card just means they dont have to do the flight test, but they still are required to do the company's initial training as per the company operations manual. So, all they are really saving, is 0.8 hours of flight time, the amount of time it takes to do a PPC ride. What you ask is already written into the rules. I'm to lazy to go look it up right now, but, I have vague reccolections of our COM saying I could get away with doing only 'annual recurrent' for a new hire candidate that arrived with ppc. I also have vague reccolections of that paragraph being struck out during one of the endless COM revisions.

If the operator is taking the existing ppc card, then flying parker pen time to get the training into the logbooks, there's a much deeper problem than 'buying a ppc'.

As the chief pilot for a small 703 operation (small enough we dont do ppc rides in house, we get them done by a transport inspector), I'm required to provide training records for a candidate when I reccomend them for a ppc ride. Those training records must show that we've done training as specified in the company operations manual. I cant imagine it being any different for other operators, TC will never approve a COM that doesn't have minimum requirements on initial and annual recurrent training.

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:13 am

Who are you to tell someone what they can afford?

If you start up an airline and you don't include training in your operating budget, you are just another in the long list of slimey crooks that we just don't need more of.

When pilots learn to stay away, these guys will disappear. Too bad there are enough pilots out there willing to give it up for free.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:19 am

CID wrote:
Who are you to tell someone what they can afford?
If you start up an airline and you don't include training in your operating budget, you are just another in the long list of slimey crooks that we just don't need more of.

When pilots learn to stay away, these guys will disappear. Too bad there are enough pilots out there willing to give it up for free.

This kind of attitude reminds me of when people say stuff like "If he can affored a big expensive house his property taxes should be higher because he can afford it" but if the so called rich operator wants to pay for his own private health care then "hold on my god that rich operator is an asshole and is contributing to the down fall of the healthcare system"

The way things are done at my company is I hire the person. If they have a PPC then great. If I like someone who doesn't have one then I'll hire them and give them a PPC (actually doing that right now. Just waiting for the weather in PA to clear up to get the ride done). If someone has 10000 hours and is an asshole and someone walks in with 1000 hours and a PPC and a good personality I'll take the 1000 hour pilot. If 2 pilots with similar qualities come in but one has a ppc and the other doesn't I'll take the one with the PPC. Sorry if that makes me a crook CID.

Mabey I'll just drop my 703 and keep my 702 then I won't have to PPC anyone. Imagine the look on the new hires face when you tell him your not going to PPC him. "what do you mean your not going to PPC me? How am I going to @#$! you over then". If it wasn't for pilots and operators fuckin eachother over we wouldn't have this issue. Or non transferable PPC's.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:57 am

Dust Devil wrote: If it wasn't for pilots and operators fuckin eachother over we wouldn't have this issue. Or non transferable PPC's.

Nice to see an operator want ing non-transferrible PPC.

I once asked a TC guy why the PPCs are transferrible. He said than when the issue was first proposed they were vaild for one operator only.
The operators demaned they be transferrible and lobbied hard enough that the current system was put in place.

I was not in the industry when PPC were first brought in. Assuming the events are correct the operators the lobbied for this have shot everyone, themselves included, in the foot.

I think its time to the inductry as a whole Pilots and Operators to lobby and drop the transferrible PPC.

Any idea on how to do this?

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:07 am

Sorry if that makes me a crook CID.

Dust Devil, you stated in your post that you pay for PPCs when required. To me that implies that you budget for training. I wouldn't classify you in the "slimey crook" category.

This kind of attitude reminds me of when people say stuff like "If he can affored a big expensive house his property taxes should be higher because he can afford it"

See now, that's where you blew it. Property taxes are based on the value of your property. If the value of your property is higher, then you pay more tax. Adding a house to a vacant lot adds value to the property. See how it works?

It's like saying a dirt lot with a Ferrari parked on it is worth less than a paved lot with a Hugo parked in it. The Ferrari owner pays more taxes too!

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:20 am

CID wrote:

See now, that's where you blew it. Property taxes are based on the value of your property. If the value of your property is higher, then you pay more tax. Adding a house to a vacant lot adds value to the property. See how it works?

I know how it works. I'm just saying it ain't right. If my property taxes are higher I should get 3 firetrucks if there is a fire. and gold plated water and sewer pipes. Just seems wrong to punish people for having nice looking homes, and reward people with shabby looking ones.

But anyway this thread isn't about tax equality so I'll leave it at that. We could start a thread on the subject but people probably don't really care

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:23 am

Edo wrote:
Dust Devil wrote: If it wasn't for pilots and operators fuckin eachother over we wouldn't have this issue. Or non transferable PPC's.
Nice to see an operator want ing non-transferrible PPC.

I once asked a TC guy why the PPCs are transferrible. He said than when the issue was first proposed they were vaild for one operator only.
The operators demaned they be transferrible and lobbied hard enough that the current system was put in place.

I was not in the industry when PPC were first brought in. Assuming the events are correct the operators the lobbied for this have shot everyone, themselves included, in the foot.

I think its time to the inductry as a whole Pilots and Operators to lobby and drop the transferrible PPC.

Any idea on how to do this?

I don't see the problem with non transferable ppc's. you still have to do company training with the pilot when you hire them regardless if they have a ppc or not. schedualing the ride is a pain in the ass however. It would be nice if CP's could do the ride as well. but that isn't likely to happen. There is a lot of room for that situation to be abused.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:15 am

jimmyjazz · Post by **jimmyjazz** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:34 pm

To answer the origonal question, you said what is the difference with a doctor or lawyer paying for there schooling and a pilot paying for a PPC. The difference is say a radioligst(doctor)finishes medical school they don't go out and rent an MRI to get trained on they get hired and trained on equipment, same as pilots should go get your cpl multi ifr find a job and company trains you on their equipment. Its our job to be licensed its the companies job to train to their standards on their equipment.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:57 pm

Dust Devil wrote: I know how it works. I'm just saying it ain't right. If my property taxes are higher I should get 3 firetrucks if there is a fire. sewer...

I know you said leave it alone, but A. you wouldn't want 3 fire trucks that would cost you 1000 dollars.... unless you guys don't pay for them to come...

Not Sewage, but when hydro goes out in toronto, you think they work on the slums first?? Post road, will be up before most if not all the ghettos.

and jimmyjazz summed it all up in his nice little post...