Flat pay and unions...

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newlygrounded
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by newlygrounded »

lownslow wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:38 am
rudder wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:53 am AC better hope the border never opens for pilots.
I always just sort of assumed they’re a big part of the reason it remains closed.
The government will NEVER open up the borders! It only took multiple @#$! ups/near misses in a short time to change the duty regulations to a level that isn't even as good as the US still (how often are the American labor laws better than ours?) And the changes still don't apply to 703's.
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tango308
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by tango308 »

newlygrounded wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:41 pm The government will NEVER open up the borders! It only took multiple @#$! ups/near misses in a short time to change the duty regulations to a level that isn't even as good as the US still (how often are the American labor laws better than ours?) And the changes still don't apply to 703's.
If the USA decide to allow Canadian pilots to come work South of the border our inapt leaders have no say in this.
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Arnie Pye
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by Arnie Pye »

You should negotiate compensation based on parity with CEO total compensation. Some companies have a fixed ratio between the lowest employee and the highest paid executive. Current Canadian numbers are something like 189:1. Enshrine that into your next contract and every time the BOD gives the CEO a fat productivity bonus, the pilot pay goes up too.
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rudder
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by rudder »

There is a rumour that AC is reviewing Pilot compensation as it is a perceived barrier to attracting the most qualified applicants.

Will be interesting to see if that is rumour or fact.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

rudder wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:28 am There is a rumour that AC is reviewing Pilot compensation as it is a perceived barrier to attracting the most qualified applicants.

Will be interesting to see if that is rumour or fact.
I'm sure ACPA is whispering to the Execs
'Don't worry daddy, it's recession time, give us the concessions'

*ACPA begins rubbing nipples vigourously*
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WellThatAgedWell
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by WellThatAgedWell »

Sorry to say it, but when you turn on the news I see a really good case for Air Canada to approach the pilots for a 10 percent pay cut. Jet fuel prices are up significantly eating into profitability. It’s not as simple as just raising prices as the new LCCs will fly people anywhere in Canada for under 250 RT. Gotta keep up with the times people!

But a really good idea might be that everyone there today votes for no pay cut, however change things so all new hires get a 6 year fixed flat pay. Maybe eliminate any pension for them also… ah what the hell let’s make this more simple, just take the rouge FA contract and hand that to the new pilots and say here’s what you get. This way the current pilots can at least keep what they have for now.
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rudder
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by rudder »

WellThatAgedWell wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:37 am Sorry to say it, but when you turn on the news I see a really good case for Air Canada to approach the pilots for a 10 percent pay cut. Jet fuel prices are up significantly eating into profitability. It’s not as simple as just raising prices as the new LCCs will fly people anywhere in Canada for under 250 RT. Gotta keep up with the times people!

But a really good idea might be that everyone there today votes for no pay cut, however change things so all new hires get a 6 year fixed flat pay. Maybe eliminate any pension for them also… ah what the hell let’s make this more simple, just take the rouge FA contract and hand that to the new pilots and say here’s what you get. This way the current pilots can at least keep what they have for now.
Meanwhile the UAL pilots get a 20% pay raise on already huge pay rates……
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alkaseltzer
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by alkaseltzer »

rudder wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:34 am [quote=WellThatAgedWell post_id=<a href="tel:1195459">1195459</a> time=<a href="tel:1653057460">1653057460</a> user_id=82724]
Sorry to say it, but when you turn on the news I see a really good case for Air Canada to approach the pilots for a 10 percent pay cut. Jet fuel prices are up significantly eating into profitability. It’s not as simple as just raising prices as the new LCCs will fly people anywhere in Canada for under 250 RT. Gotta keep up with the times people!

But a really good idea might be that everyone there today votes for no pay cut, however change things so all new hires get a 6 year fixed flat pay. Maybe eliminate any pension for them also… ah what the hell let’s make this more simple, just take the rouge FA contract and hand that to the new pilots and say here’s what you get. This way the current pilots can at least keep what they have for now.
Meanwhile the UAL pilots get a 20% pay raise on already huge pay rates……
[/quote]

What is their net take home? After medical insurance, other costly programs in the USA. How much is car insurance? Municipal taxes as percentage of house value? Cost to send kids to a good primary and secondary school?
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jpilot77
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by jpilot77 »

alkaseltzer wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:05 pm
rudder wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:34 am [quote=WellThatAgedWell post_id=<a href="tel:1195459">1195459</a> time=<a href="tel:1653057460">1653057460</a> user_id=82724]
Sorry to say it, but when you turn on the news I see a really good case for Air Canada to approach the pilots for a 10 percent pay cut. Jet fuel prices are up significantly eating into profitability. It’s not as simple as just raising prices as the new LCCs will fly people anywhere in Canada for under 250 RT. Gotta keep up with the times people!

But a really good idea might be that everyone there today votes for no pay cut, however change things so all new hires get a 6 year fixed flat pay. Maybe eliminate any pension for them also… ah what the hell let’s make this more simple, just take the rouge FA contract and hand that to the new pilots and say here’s what you get. This way the current pilots can at least keep what they have for now.
Meanwhile the UAL pilots get a 20% pay raise on already huge pay rates……
What is their net take home? After medical insurance, other costly programs in the USA. How much is car insurance? Municipal taxes as percentage of house value? Cost to send kids to a good primary and secondary school?
[/quote]

I believe medical insurance is completely covered by United. Tax rates are also a lot lower in the states especially if you live in a state that doesn’t charge income tax. Also don’t forget the 25% to 30% increase just on the exchange rate. Plus positive space commuting you can live out in the sticks and buy a house for a fraction of YYZ or YVR even YUL.
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Supposedly the new United pay scales:
7A3DE411-53F8-4BA7-BEC8-863915AE84E9.jpeg
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E24EE560-8794-4C79-9781-CC1D0CFC3EC9.jpeg (95.49 KiB) Viewed 1844 times
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

With rates like these 2 things would happen to Air Canada.

1: There would be no shortage of applications to Air Canada.
2: Air Canada would declare bankruptcy.

Am I doing the math wrong, or are yr 1 A380 Captains making 530+k based on 12x85 credit periods? :shock:
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WellThatAgedWell
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by WellThatAgedWell »

2nd year 67 FO makes 200 cad/hr. :o

Is AC hiring directly to WB FO?

United WB FO will make just shy of 800k CAD in first 4 years. AC WB FO makes what? 275 the first four years combined? Nice! Only 65 percent behind in pay.

The pension, benefits, taxes and cost of living must all add up to justify the 65 percent.
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Col. Panic
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by Col. Panic »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:21 pm With rates like these 2 things would happen to Air Canada.

1: There would be no shortage of applications to Air Canada.
2: Air Canada would declare bankruptcy.

Am I doing the math wrong, or are yr 1 A380 Captains making 530+k based on 12x85 credit periods? :shock:
I think you will find that many successful airlines can pay their pilots a competitive wage without going bankrupt. Just as agreeing to fly the B690SF for 10% less than our already painfully low B767 rates wasn’t going to make or break the cargo operation, paying UAL rates wouldn’t bankrupt the company.

Yr 1 A380 Capt is a very theoretical position. I highly doubt there are any wide body captains at UAL who are not at the 12 years of service pay level. Not to mention, I don’t recall seeing too many 380s in their fleet.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Col. Panic wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:21 pm With rates like these 2 things would happen to Air Canada.

1: There would be no shortage of applications to Air Canada.
2: Air Canada would declare bankruptcy.

Am I doing the math wrong, or are yr 1 A380 Captains making 530+k based on 12x85 credit periods? :shock:
I think you will find that many successful airlines can pay their pilots a competitive wage without going bankrupt. Just as agreeing to fly the B690SF for 10% less than our already painfully low B767 rates wasn’t going to make or break the cargo operation, paying UAL rates wouldn’t bankrupt the company.

Yr 1 A380 Capt is a very theoretical position. I highly doubt there are any wide body captains at UAL who are not at the 12 years of service pay level. Not to mention, I don’t recall seeing too many 380s in their fleet.
A little tongue in cheek dramatization from the Execs lol. I'm on your side that wages can, and should come up dramatically at AC without any major consequence to the bottomline - it just seems there's always an excuse from the union and management not to. The old saying that it's 'them, and not us' usually applies to those defending current payscales and competition.

The trend I'm seeing from the pilot group nowadays and those that post here is a 180 degree switch on WAWCON defence, which is nice to see. A little realization that if this is the 'NHL', we've got a serious problem here.

As far as the 380, I highlighted the first year to show that they theoretically have a payscale that starts at 500k+ then tags on another 12+ years. Agreed that there are likely no flight crews sitting at YR1 A380, but probably a few sitting at +12 😳
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altiplano
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by altiplano »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:21 pm With rates like these 2 things would happen to Air Canada.

1: There would be no shortage of applications to Air Canada.
2: Air Canada would declare bankruptcy.
That wouldn't be the reason for it. Pilot pay makes up such a small cost in the overall operation as to barely register.

Also pilots make decisions every day that have a big effect on cost. I would posit that guys that feel they are looked after well, by a company that prides itself on leading the way for its flight ops wawcon are prepared to go that extra mile that more than makes up for what amounts to an insignificant rounding error on the bottom line.

Alternatively, force guys to fight to get their expenses. Leave guys waiting until the last hour to find out their schedule of unproductive flying figured out by a computer as the lowest pay solution without looking at any other metrics that in fact add to cost in another department, or unseen factors like fatigue and increased bookoffs. Have guys working so much they aren't available to help when called. Leave guys falling behind their peers at a rate increasing ever faster year after year. Poison the well with a group that are going to be here for the next 25 or 35 years....

Those things have big costs.

Rush on a short call? No. Extend a duty day? F-no. Move up my report time? Uh uh. Single engine taxi? LOL. Help out crew sked in a pinch? Riiiiight. Another 16+ day schedule? Book off.

Any single one of those would have saved them that increased "cost" of paying a pilot a legacy heading wawcon.
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by altiplano »

Also, I see you're tongue in cheek... but statements like that catch on and people come to accept them.
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rudder
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by rudder »

Col. Panic wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am Yr 1 A380 Capt is a very theoretical position. I highly doubt there are any wide body captains at UAL who are not at the 12 years of service pay level. Not to mention, I don’t recall seeing too many 380s in their fleet.
The 380 rate is a ‘place setter’ rate just like the CRJ900 rate. UAL will never operate either (at mainline).

Add in a rumoured increase to 19% company contribution to 401k (pilot contributes nil) and POS space commuting, what you have is a representation of a company that understands it will have to compete to attract and retain a diminishing resource (qualified pilots).

Go figure.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

altiplano wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:43 am Also, I see you're tongue in cheek... but statements like that catch on and people come to accept them.
Rog!
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lee123
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by lee123 »

And then just wait what Delta comes up with to one up United.
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rudder
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Re: Flat pay and unions...

Post by rudder »

lee123 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:44 am And then just wait what Delta comes up with to one up United.
Just stick with ACPA.

I am sure that their skilled bargainers and crafty ‘CEO’ will figure out a way to make sure that the AC pilots are making just 1/2 of what the UA/AA/DL pilots are making.
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