ADSB requirements come to GA in Canada 2023/2026

[photofly]

From 23 Feb 2023, above 12,500, and from (no earlier than) 2026 in all controlled airspace, you will have to equip with 1090MHz ADSB including a diversity antennas (up and down) or one antenna that can do both.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/aiceng202202.pdf

[digits_]

Is that basically the US adsb requirement + diversity antenna?

[photofly]

US doesn’t require diversity antennas, and they have the option of 978 UAT instead of 1090. We are stuck with the more expensive system, and no free weather info.

[lownslow]

Those cheap bastards, they can’t even throw in Wx data in their transmissions to help sweeten the pot? I hope my old jalopy gets exempted.

[Inverted2]

What about planes without electrics like Cubs? I can’t see how this is necessary for a 65 year old farmer going for his Sunday morning farm tour. Or is this only if you want to go into control zones?

[Aviatard]

What about planes without electrics like Cubs? I can’t see how this is necessary for a 65 year old farmer going for his Sunday morning farm tour. Or is this only if you want to go into control zones?

Controlled airspace not necessarily control zones. Farmer Bill and his cub are safe for now.

[photofly]

Aren’t all control zones controlled airspace? So yes, it will include all control zones.

If farmer Bill can stay entirely outside of class A-E airspace and entirely inside uncontrolled airspace he’s ok.

To be honest this plan has been put off a couple of time by Navcanada so it might change again.

[Inverted2]

Thanks for clearing that up. I know a few older fellas who just like going up and flying around the countryside on weekends who never fly to controlled airports. Don’t think they would like the idea of shelling out thousands of dollars in avionics. I doubt they use the radio ever, just flying off their grass runways.

[Aviatard]

Aren’t all control zones controlled airspace? So yes, it will include all control zones.

If farmer Bill can stay entirely outside of class A-E airspace and entirely inside uncontrolled airspace he’s ok.

To be honest this plan has been put off a couple of time by Navcanada so it might change again.

Yes you are correct of course. I meant to say “just” instead of “necessarily” control zones. The wording about “no earlier than 2026” indicates it may well be extended again.

[photofly]

Thanks for clearing that up. I know a few older fellas who just like going up and flying around the countryside on weekends who never fly to controlled airports. Don’t think they would like the idea of shelling out thousands of dollars in avionics. I doubt they use the radio ever, just flying off their grass runways.

Depends where you are. Staying out of controlled airspace near here means staying below 700Agl, which is pretty tough.

The diversity requirement could be pretty tough; it’s an extra few $k for a diversity transponder (over and above a regular 1090ES one) and another antenna on the top of the plane.

The thing you replace your tail light with might be a cheap solution though.

[thenoflyzone]

US doesn’t require diversity antennas, and they have the option of 978 UAT instead of 1090. We are stuck with the more expensive system, and no free weather info.

In many cases, the installation cost is 30-50% less for a 1090.

[PeterParker]

Those cheap bastards, they can’t even throw in Wx data in their transmissions to help sweeten the pot? I hope my old jalopy gets exempted.

When does NavCanada ever actually added value to aviation other than when it benefited their own bottom line?

The AWWS website still looks like it was made in 1997. They have not had a single new weather product that is more modern despite the internet having moved so far ahead in the past 20 odd years. Their new NOTAM website is beyond useless for anyone not flying IFR. Year over year, their Air Traffic Services have been getting poorer and poorer. Why would you think they would give out free weather on ADS-B when they can sell it to XM and the mapping companies like Boeing/Foreflight/Jeppesen and Garmin/FltPlan?

[thenoflyzone]

Those cheap bastards, they can’t even throw in Wx data in their transmissions to help sweeten the pot? I hope my old jalopy gets exempted.

NavCan was supposed to start implementing their ADS-B mandate in class A airspace almost exactly a year ago. They delayed it, due to pushback from the flying community. Now, they announce new implementation dates that should give the GA community ample time to comply. And yet, they're the ones being cheap, or not sweetening the pot enough?

I think you have it backwards.

The world is moving towards an ADS-B mandate, and eventually, in all controlled airspaces. It's a matter of time.

When does NavCanada ever actually added value to aviation other than when it benefited their own bottom line?

The AWWS website still looks like it was made in 1997. They have not had a single new weather product that is more modern despite the internet having moved so far ahead in the past 20 odd years. Their new NOTAM website is beyond useless for anyone not flying IFR. Year over year, their Air Traffic Services have been getting poorer and poorer. Why would you think they would give out free weather on ADS-B when they can sell it to XM and the mapping companies like Boeing/Foreflight/Jeppesen and Garmin/FltPlan?

1. AWWS is no more "1997" that several other American governmental aviation/weather websites, including these two beauties.

https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/?legacy=true

https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/

The main reason why AWWS hasn't had a cosmetic makeover is because of the launch of CFPS.

Bottom line, AWWS, although it no longer has a modern look, is pretty straightforward and delivers the info you need. That's the only thing that really matters.

2. No new weather products in the past 20 odd years? I beg to differ. There were no WX Cams at hundreds of airports across Canada when TC was in charge of ATC.

https://www.metcam.navcanada.ca/hb/index.jsp?lang=e

Not to mention all the new AWOS's they've installed at secondary/regional airports across the country in the last 10-15 years.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/automated-w ... ---faq.pdf

3. What's not useful about CFPS and their NOTAM website? It's also pretty straightforward. Seems to me you want your weather briefing delivered to you on a silver platter.

[photofly]

NavCan was supposed to start implementing their ADS-B mandate in class A airspace almost exactly a year ago. They delayed it, due to pushback from the flying community. Now, they announce new implementation dates that should give the GA community ample time to comply.

Why does time given to comply with an expensive new equipment requirement make it any better?

There were no WX Cams at hundreds of airports across Canada when TC was in charge of ATC.

Webcams. Woot. That's not really very much to show for 20 years, is it?

[linecrew]

NavCan was supposed to start implementing their ADS-B mandate in class A airspace almost exactly a year ago. They delayed it, due to pushback from the flying community. Now, they announce new implementation dates that should give the GA community ample time to comply.

Why does time given to comply with an expensive new equipment requirement make it any better?

There were no WX Cams at hundreds of airports across Canada when TC was in charge of ATC.

Webcams. Woot. That's not really very much to show for 20 years, is it?

I agree, giving ample time to comply is not relevant. There is no business case for GA to comply with ADS-B and only imposes a further expense to aircraft owners already dealing with steadily rising operating expenses of their aircraft.

Wrt to web cams, with the technology out there, why are they not live streaming?

[photofly]

Wrt to web cams, with the technology out there, why are they not live streaming?

Because they can only afford the phone bill for the 33.6k modems for one call every 10 minutes.

[linecrew]

Wrt to web cams, with the technology out there, why are they not live streaming?

Because they can only afford the phone bill for the 33.6k modems for one call every 10 minutes.

Too bad NAV CAN or Env. Canada doesn't offset that in the interest of safety. Oh well.

[digits_]

3. What's not useful about CFPS and their NOTAM website? It's also pretty straightforward.

A flight between 2 airports in canada, 50 miles apart shows me warning about the situation in Ukrain.

In the old website you could just get the local notams, which is exactly what I needed. I don't think the new website can do this.

In practice, i know use Windy to check for notams, and if I file a flight plan for my flight, I ask the specialist for a notam briefing. So I use the official website less, and burden the specialists more.

Seems to me you want your weather briefing delivered to you on a silver platter.

Well yes. Of course. Who wouldn't? Isn't that the whole point? Why go through added expense to make it *less* convenient to access notams?

Another issue is that you need to be logged in to access the info. Makes it harder to check stuff in FBOs etc.

[PeterParker]

3. What's not useful about CFPS and their NOTAM website? It's also pretty straightforward. Seems to me you want your weather briefing delivered to you on a silver platter.

Not sure if you last checked but the web has come a long way from a technological standpoint.

Counterpoints to your arguments only one of which I quoted here... Go to NOTAM.ca and check out their Visual Brief. If an aviation enthusiast can make such an amazing product, imagine what a large corp like Nav Canada do with some motivation?

GFAs are still only meant to be seen on desktop since their overlay of showing the name of aerodromes only works when using a mouse and not on a touch screen. We have had touchscreens as the major source of internet for well over a decade now, closing in on two very soon.

I remember reading on an aviation magazine from a few years ago that Nav Canada was considering bringing in upper wind forecasts to 4 times a day instead of twice to help improve weather forecasting for the VFR folk. That has not yet happened now, has it? That was less than 10 years ago that I read that!

Also, we are using internet in the 21st century. Why do METAR and TAF need to use code as if using a Telegram from the 20th century? It isn't like packets are that expensive these days. I am sure we could have more modern versions of that. The blame for this goes squarely on every aviation regulator out there for making it harder to get into aviation than it has to be.

[digits_]

Also, we are using internet in the 21st century. Why do METAR and TAF need to use code as if using a Telegram from the 20th century? It isn't like packets are that expensive these days. I am sure we could have more modern versions of that. The blame for this goes squarely on every aviation regulator out there for making it harder to get into aviation than it has to be.

No no no, please keep that. It's such a logical format. Very easy to see what you want. The human readable formats are way more cluttered.
(I mean this, this is not meant sarcastically)

[boeingboy]

ADSB weather has never been sent over 1090 - its always been sent over 978.....and the 978 solutions have been the cheaper one.

The issues are 1) they are not building the ground stations required for 978 and 2) 1090 is the international standard. 978 is strictly a US thing.

[Lycosaurus]

ADS-B weather in USA is transmitted at 978MHz. While Canada does not have similar TC or Nav Canada weather data available for ADS-B, there is a non-profit group that is developing something similar in that same frequency band. The transmitters would be located in select airports and have a substantial range. Coverage would likely be lacking in the hinterlands I presume.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/news-and-public ... n-aircraft

Latest I heard is that Nav Canada is setting up a test system from Ottawa airport (CYOW). Maybe Nav Canada will invest in some of these systems to be placed strategically across the country?

[lownslow]

Those cheap bastards, they can’t even throw in Wx data in their transmissions to help sweeten the pot? I hope my old jalopy gets exempted.

NavCan was supposed to start implementing their ADS-B mandate in class A airspace almost exactly a year ago. They delayed it, due to pushback from the flying community. Now, they announce new implementation dates that should give the GA community ample time to comply. And yet, they're the ones being cheap, or not sweetening the pot enough?

Yes, I stand by it. In the US the offer of free wx products available in near realtime was used to help soften the blow of having to install thousands of dollars worth of avionics that weren’t demonstrably needed yesterday by most of the GA population. I’d argue that Canada being as sparsely settled and sparsely airported as it is makes an even better case for the utility of wx data for all.

And let’s not kid ourselves, the main purpose of mandating ADS-B is to save money on the hiring and training of controllers as well as the installation and maintenance of radar units. Surely there’s enough free budget as a result to send a little wx along with the data package beamed down from the satellites.

[boeingboy]

Those cheap bastards, they can’t even throw in Wx data in their transmissions to help sweeten the pot? I hope my old jalopy gets exempted.

NavCan was supposed to start implementing their ADS-B mandate in class A airspace almost exactly a year ago. They delayed it, due to pushback from the flying community. Now, they announce new implementation dates that should give the GA community ample time to comply. And yet, they're the ones being cheap, or not sweetening the pot enough?

Yes, I stand by it. In the US the offer of free wx products available in near realtime was used to help soften the blow of having to install thousands of dollars worth of avionics that weren’t demonstrably needed yesterday by most of the GA population. I’d argue that Canada being as sparsely settled and sparsely airported as it is makes an even better case for the utility of wx data for all.

And let’s not kid ourselves, the main purpose of mandating ADS-B is to save money on the hiring and training of controllers as well as the installation and maintenance of radar units. Surely there’s enough free budget as a result to send a little wx along with the data package beamed down from the satellites.

Clearly someone needs to educate themselves more on the subject rather than just being miffed.

[lownslow]

Clearly someone needs to educate themselves more on the subject rather than just being miffed.

Apparently, though I’m still miffed to be staring down the barrel at that cost.