CTA launches formal probe into Flair

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goingmissed
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by goingmissed »

rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:40 pm
goingmissed wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:28 pm
rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:59 pm

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?
You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.
Huh? I'm not a Flair pilot bud, what are you on about? What do you expect someone in survival mode to do? They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die? LOL! I don't know what's really going on with this CTA issue. None of you do, but I bet this goes away. If you actually think Flair shuts the doors, by their own volition or not, you're naive and a moron. It's pretty clear given everything they've been through that they are not going anywhere, as much as some of you foaming at the mouth wish they did.

Get on with your lives guys. Christ. Aviation is coming alive again in Canada and pilots are getting hired. Ya'll are whining over ownership? What about duopolies gouging passengers? One with a history of being bailed out by the government with taxpayer money. Sheesh.

Flair says they are disrupting the industry with low fares. I think they are disrupting sour pilots like yourself :lol:

I say go Flair go. Same with Lynx. If it stimulates aviation in this country, I'm ALL for it.
I wish Flair the best and I hope that they can move past their alleged indiscretions.

Will you defend the recent Pivot scandal too?
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nynybear
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by nynybear »

It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.
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rudder
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by rudder »

My prediction is that the CTA will propose remedial action for Flair consistent with current regulations. Among other things - compliance with BOD population/voting rights/etc.

The ball will be back in Flair’s court.

The CTA has the hammer. Not Flair. And the CTA is a government agency, not some tool of the government of the day.

If any of the financiers do not like the remedial structure, they can always withdraw.
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avi8tr1364
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by avi8tr1364 »

nynybear wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:29 pm It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.
The first 13 Max's are leased from 777 Partners, and it looks like with an option to lease a minimum of 24 Max's from 777 Partners. Not sure who owns the 3 NG's.

https://skiesmag.com/news/entrepreneuri ... disruptor/
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55+
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by 55+ »

rudder wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:42 am My prediction is that the CTA will propose remedial action for Flair consistent with current regulations. Among other things - compliance with BOD population/voting rights/etc.

The ball will be back in Flair’s court.

The CTA has the hammer. Not Flair. And the CTA is a government agency, not some tool of the government of the day.

If any of the financiers do not like the remedial structure, they can always withdraw.
I suspect your analysis is quite correct. Rest assured the CTA won’t grant Flair a year and half to present a corrective action plan, it will be a short leash. The CTA have knowledgeable people and from what I understand of their structure they have an uncanny ability to drill down through corporate structures and are very good at what they do. Insiders told me intimidation against them doesn’t work as some corporate entities found out.
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SPR
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by SPR »

rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:59 pm So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing.
WestJet and Jazz didn't receive anything besides CEWS from the government, which is exactly what Flair got. Transat and Sunwing took out LEEFF loans, which was also available to Flair, but Flair chose not to pursue it. That's not anyone else's fault. AC signed an agreement with the government for loans and share dilution that WestJet found too onerous for their own needs, and I imagine such an agreement would have been available to Flair had they pursued it and had an operation that was financially viable; the fact that they didn't get such a deal means either Flair decided not to go after it, in which case it would be their own fault, or the company was on such terrible footing that the government didn't see any return on the investment, in which case it reflects very poorly on their financial situation.
rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:40 pm They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die?
See above regarding "everyone else" getting government assistance. As for breaking the law in regards to save oneself, would you say the same about a pilot continuing to fly after losing his or her medical in order to keep earning an income? Would you say the same about an AME continuing to fix airplanes after having his or her licence pulled? Would you say the same about WestJet or Air Canada knowingly violating the CARs in order to earn a profit? After all, rules are just dumb rules and can be ignored when one doesn't agree with them!
rudder wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:42 am My prediction is that the CTA will propose remedial action for Flair consistent with current regulations. Among other things - compliance with BOD population/voting rights/etc.

The ball will be back in Flair’s court.

The CTA has the hammer. Not Flair. And the CTA is a government agency, not some tool of the government of the day.

If any of the financiers do not like the remedial structure, they can always withdraw.
I think this is precisely right. I think 777 received the board seats as a condition of their investment, and that any solutions proposed by the CTA will be distasteful to them. Any structure that takes control away from 777 will result in them taking their ball and going home, so it won't necessarily be that Flair's licence is pulled; they may just lose their financing and airplanes.
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Flightgame
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by Flightgame »

rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:40 pm
goingmissed wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:28 pm
rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:59 pm

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?
You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.
Huh? I'm not a Flair pilot bud, what are you on about? What do you expect someone in survival mode to do? They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die? LOL! I don't know what's really going on with this CTA issue. None of you do, but I bet this goes away. If you actually think Flair shuts the doors, by their own volition or not, you're naive and a moron. It's pretty clear given everything they've been through that they are not going anywhere, as much as some of you foaming at the mouth wish they did.

Get on with your lives guys. Christ. Aviation is coming alive again in Canada and pilots are getting hired. Ya'll are whining over ownership? What about duopolies gouging passengers? One with a history of being bailed out by the government with taxpayer money. Sheesh.

Flair says they are disrupting the industry with low fares. I think they are disrupting sour pilots like yourself :lol:

I say go Flair go. Same with Lynx. If it stimulates aviation in this country, I'm ALL for it.

Completely agree with this. There are finally jobs in the market and employers are starting to value their employees. If Flair shuts down, we will be exploited again :(

So go Flair !
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nynybear
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by nynybear »

Wow you must have some pretty sweet insider info because as far as I'm concerned - and what's available to the public - there has not been any guilty conviction->fine/penalties nor extensive details listing CTA findings etc.. But hey, once again, why let the facts get in the way of some sensational stories. You're either desperately trying to stoke the flames of your own fear or really stupid/naive to be basing your assumptions on news media stories. Maybe both. There is presently significant doubt that anybody protesting negatively here or on news media is actually a conscientious objector and neutral party within the industry. Much more likely employees of a competitor company who would love to see the competition go under, thus rather short-sightedly drive their own terms and conditions lower as well. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. When did Canadian Aviation get so cynical and when did Pilots get so self-destructive? It's pretty sad to see. Shutting down an Airline for interpreted 'control' details would be very interesting to see as it's plays out especially when less than half the board seats are actually filled at the moment and there are zero safety issues at stake. In addition if you think that 777 Partners, or any other foreign investor, will dump their investment because of a one seat imbalance on a board and run to the hills with absolutely zero ROI then please for God's sakes do not offer any financial advice to anybody ever. But by all means keep posting because I think you're funny.
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fish4life
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by fish4life »

The kook aid at Flair must have been even more spiked than what westjet used to serve.
It’s almost like the former majority shareholder suing 777 and the ceo didn’t happen
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canadianpilot101
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by canadianpilot101 »

avi8tr1364 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:09 am
nynybear wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:29 pm It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.
The first 13 Max's are leased from 777 Partners, and it looks like with an option to lease a minimum of 24 Max's from 777 Partners. Not sure who owns the 3 NG's.

https://skiesmag.com/news/entrepreneuri ... disruptor/
This is incorrect information
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goingmissed
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by goingmissed »

canadianpilot101 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:32 pm
avi8tr1364 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:09 am
nynybear wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:29 pm It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.
The first 13 Max's are leased from 777 Partners, and it looks like with an option to lease a minimum of 24 Max's from 777 Partners. Not sure who owns the 3 NG's.

https://skiesmag.com/news/entrepreneuri ... disruptor/
This is incorrect information
You are correct. There are only 14 aircraft on register for Flair at the moment.

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/ ... hSimp.aspx
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elite
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by elite »

Some emotional arguments ostensibly from Flair crowd which is understandable, but in final analysis none of it matters. Imagine if it were United pumping billions into Air Canada, and controlling its board, you will likely feel differently. The issue is control of the airline and its board, not what percentage of its aircraft are leased from them, and 777 controls Flair and its board! Flair knowingly broke the law, and there will be a consequence for it. If that will in the form of cancelling its AOC, the public will still have a lot of other choices and its staff can be absorbed by others hiring.
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pelmet
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by pelmet »

goingmissed wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:28 pm
rooster wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:59 pm
elite wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:15 pm The comments from Flair seem to indicate they have been in breach of the law for some time and they have known it too. It is ridiculous that they expect to have an additional year and half at the expense of every other airline to further expand and consolidate. Is Flair a real business that has to profit and grow, or does it it just have to make lease payments to 777 while it no doubt amasses hundreds of millions in debt to Canadian companies that supply it what it needs and then someday will be left holding the bag when it files for bankruptcy protection, meanwhile 777 has collected all its lease payments?!

Then there’s the issue of foreign ownership which if changed for one company, will have to be changed for all, and that would make all Canadian airlines vulnerable to take overs overnight. Is accommodating Flair in its private business with an American leasing company worth that much risk for the whole country? There doesn’t seem to be a problem for other airlines!! Good night Flair seems to be right! If a company breaks the law, it has to suffer the consequences.
The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?
You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.
As an average Canadian who benefits from lower prices from Flair, along with them hiring many people which has greatly helped the piloting profession, I say....give them a year and a half OR take my taxpayers money back from their competitors.

Think of the minor indiscretion by Flair as the corporate version of all those who got CERB from the government that didn't qualify. Ok, eventually, some will have to comply but no big deal, right?
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goingmissed
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by goingmissed »

pelmet wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:28 pm
As an average Canadian who benefits from lower prices from Flair, along with them hiring many people which has greatly helped the piloting profession, I say....give them a year and a half OR take my taxpayers money back from their competitors.

Think of the minor indiscretion by Flair as the corporate version of all those who got CERB from the government that didn't qualify. Ok, eventually, some will have to comply but no big deal, right?
I disagree with your opinion that it's no big deal, but I cannot argue that Flair is helping offer affordable travel to the masses.
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lownslow
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by lownslow »

Wouldn’t all of these things being contested have been previously approved by the CTA as they were set up? Seems to me like this is just noise to get “Flair bad” into people’s heads.
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rudder
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by rudder »

lownslow wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:24 pm Wouldn’t all of these things being contested have been previously approved by the CTA as they were set up? Seems to me like this is just noise to get “Flair bad” into people’s heads.
The Flair AOC was a pre-existing AOC carried forward in to the new operation. However, I am assuming that each corporate identity change (i.e. Flair Air to Flair Airlines) would have triggered at a minimum a cursory review by the CTA for regulatory compliance.

Compliance with CTA statutes is not a ‘snapshot’. It is a window that remains open. An AOC holder must at all times be compliant.

The facts of this case make it clear that there were changes over time. What is being seemingly asserted by the CTA is that circa April 2022, Flair is non-compliant. Flair was given an opportunity to demonstrate that assertion was inaccurate. Flair responded. And now the clock is ticking.

I still believe the CTA will propose a remedy (no, not some 18 month grace period). It will affect the Flair BOD. It will effect control. It will affect the amount of influence held by 777 Partners. And it will be compliant with the requirements of a CDN AOC holder.
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Flairpilot
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by Flairpilot »

elite wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:39 am Some emotional arguments ostensibly from Flair crowd which is understandable, but in final analysis none of it matters. Imagine if it were United pumping billions into Air Canada, and controlling its board, you will likely feel differently. The issue is control of the airline and its board, not what percentage of its aircraft are leased from them, and 777 controls Flair and its board! Flair knowingly broke the law, and there will be a consequence for it. If that will in the form of cancelling its AOC, the public will still have a lot of other choices and its staff can be absorbed by others hiring.
If it helps you understand, think of it as the tax payer pumping money into AC: every time they go CCAA. Except it’s not the tax payer, it’s free market economics. Beyond that, the issue is board seats not money. That should hopefully help…
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DanWEC
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by DanWEC »

Rudder beat me to it LnS. Initial compliance would have been established through their existing OC. Then the submission for financing and control in compliance with foreign ownership rules, etc were all good.

This investigation of Control In Fact is much less tangible than the basic surface adherence, such as installing tractable board members, possibly executives, etc.

I predict this will end in findings and actions required, but only in line with compliancy for Flair. No gross actions of shutdowns or anything. How that bodes for the partnership with 777 is a wildcard, as will be suits from competitors.
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rudder
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by rudder »

Flairpilot wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:47 am If it helps you understand, think of it as the tax payer pumping money into AC: every time they go CCAA. Except it’s not the tax payer, it’s free market economics. Beyond that, the issue is board seats not money. That should hopefully help…
The ‘tax payer’ (I assume you mean Federal government) did not pump even one penny in to AC either as bridge financing (GECAS was the debtor-in-possession lender during the 18 month restructuring period) nor as the equity sponsor (Cerberus Capital) allowing AC to exit CCAA.

I also do not believe that the Federal Government was on the list of unsecured creditors whom all ended up with equity in ACE Holdings, although a federal agency or corporation may have been on the list of hundreds of unsecured creditors associated with what was at the time the second largest CCAA restructuring in Canada.

It is all a matter of record.
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elite
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Re: CTA launches formal probe into Flair

Post by elite »

Flair has received 11.3 millions government funding to date. 3 millions from federal economic development agency of southern Ontario in April 2021 and 8.3 from western economic diversification in August 2021. The funding from 777 was being advanced at the same time Flair was taking funding from the government. It is ridiculous to suggest breaking foreign ownership and control laws is no big deal. it is and every other airline follows them.
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