imjustlurking wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:14 pm
It's quite easy to figure out where one stands on the WR/WS list by looking at the 'one list' and ignoring any WR pilots. As far as I am aware, there are no more bump downs at Encore anymore.
Firstly, I am unwilling to take your word or the Company's word or ALPA's word on things. I don’t trust people who tell me, "...don't bother looking, just trust me!"
Secondly, how do you know what the order is of the bargaining unit seniority list for pilots who flowed from Encore? Have you read our CBA? In it, you will find a description of our Pilot Seniority List (WPSL/PSL). I would remind you that the PTA makes one and only one reference to the PSL. The PTA does not revise the description of the PSL, nor does it extinguish the PSL. The PTA doesn't say what to do to create a successor to the PTA-generated transfer list misleadingly called the "Seniority List" in the event of PTA cancelation.
We are supposed to believe that the framers of the PTA (presumably ably assisted on both ALPA and Company side by competent legal advisors) planned for a possible cancelation of the PTA but somehow forgot to tell the parties to the agreement where to place new hire pilots?
That defies belief. Even for a group so woefully negligent as ALPA has been with respect to the seniority rights of its members at WSW and WJA.
The PSL exists. The Company and ALPA just have to publish it so that the members can verify their position on it (as described by the CBA's seniority list provisions) as well as their personal information on it (like Date of Hire at WSW or WJA).
Read 11.03 in the PTA.
If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority
number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be
protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes
described in this LOA. The
My lurking colleague. I just addressed your contention in my last two posts on the Sunwing subforum.
If you have time, could you look at those two posts and pull apart the arguments to see where I am wrong in my reasoning and post your response there?
I am getting skinny on time for breakfast prior to heading to the airport and I need to get the PVR sand out of my butt crack before I put on fresh undies.
imjustlurking wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:14 pm
It's quite easy to figure out where one stands on the WR/WS list by looking at the 'one list' and ignoring any WR pilots. As far as I am aware, there are no more bump downs at Encore anymore.
Firstly, I am unwilling to take your word or the Company's word or ALPA's word on things. I don’t trust people who tell me, "...don't bother looking, just trust me!"
Secondly, how do you know what the order is of the bargaining unit seniority list for pilots who flowed from Encore? Have you read our CBA? In it, you will find a description of our Pilot Seniority List (WPSL/PSL). I would remind you that the PTA makes one and only one reference to the PSL. The PTA does not revise the description of the PSL, nor does it extinguish the PSL. The PTA doesn't say what to do to create a successor to the PTA-generated transfer list misleadingly called the "Seniority List" in the event of PTA cancelation.
We are supposed to believe that the framers of the PTA (presumably ably assisted on both ALPA and Company side by competent legal advisors) planned for a possible cancelation of the PTA but somehow forgot to tell the parties to the agreement where to place new hire pilots?
That defies belief. Even for a group so woefully negligent as ALPA has been with respect to the seniority rights of its members at WSW and WJA.
The PSL exists. The Company and ALPA just have to publish it so that the members can verify their position on it (as described by the CBA's seniority list provisions) as well as their personal information on it (like Date of Hire at WSW or WJA).
Read 11.03 in the PTA.
If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority
number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be
protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes
described in this LOA. The
I forget what the original WJPA one list said, but the arbitrator ruled that only the pilots flying the jets got to keep their DOH on the pilot list when the new CBA for WestJet/Swoop came into effect. I expect that the ruling will be the same if we're merging a seniority list with Sunwing, only those flying the jet will have their seniority numbers protected all others will be excluded. I'm sure that Sunwing pilot would be seeking to have the PTA thrown out or at least have the seniority numbers clause nullified, I know I would if I was working at Sunwing.
John, I respect what you’re doing here and I do think you’d be an asset to the merger committee. I too agree that the best outcome for everyone will be an amicably negotiated resolution.
BUT… The fact still remains that it will come to a negotiation. How about we keep the spit-balling & dialogue about the inner workings of our department list, PTA, Flow agreements to an internal forum for the time being?
I do believe you may be unintentionally showing a few cards. And at the very least you may be setting some expectations.
It just kind of seems like common sense at the moment not to discuss these things in detail on an open forum.
Firstly, I am unwilling to take your word or the Company's word or ALPA's word on things. I don’t trust people who tell me, "...don't bother looking, just trust me!"
Secondly, how do you know what the order is of the bargaining unit seniority list for pilots who flowed from Encore? Have you read our CBA? In it, you will find a description of our Pilot Seniority List (WPSL/PSL). I would remind you that the PTA makes one and only one reference to the PSL. The PTA does not revise the description of the PSL, nor does it extinguish the PSL. The PTA doesn't say what to do to create a successor to the PTA-generated transfer list misleadingly called the "Seniority List" in the event of PTA cancelation.
We are supposed to believe that the framers of the PTA (presumably ably assisted on both ALPA and Company side by competent legal advisors) planned for a possible cancelation of the PTA but somehow forgot to tell the parties to the agreement where to place new hire pilots?
That defies belief. Even for a group so woefully negligent as ALPA has been with respect to the seniority rights of its members at WSW and WJA.
The PSL exists. The Company and ALPA just have to publish it so that the members can verify their position on it (as described by the CBA's seniority list provisions) as well as their personal information on it (like Date of Hire at WSW or WJA).
Read 11.03 in the PTA.
If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority
number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be
protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes
described in this LOA. The
I forget what the original WJPA one list said, but the arbitrator ruled that only the pilots flying the jets got to keep their DOH on the pilot list when the new CBA for WestJet/Swoop came into effect. I expect that the ruling will be the same if we're merging a seniority list with Sunwing, only those flying the jet will have their seniority numbers protected all others will be excluded. I'm sure that Sunwing pilot would be seeking to have the PTA thrown out or at least have the seniority numbers clause nullified, I know I would if I was working at Sunwing.
I don't see the PTA (a legally binding agreement that was ratified by both pilot groups and the company) being tossed aside just because a new pilot group is being introduced.
The race is on now to determine which list, the one maintained by the Company, called the WestJet Pilot Seniority List, or the one maintained by ALPA, called the Seniority List, is the one that will be handed to the SunWing merger committee if there is a merger of SunWing’s bargaining unit with the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit.
John, do you think that LOAs and MOUs exist independently of the CBA? The PTA was added to the WestJet CBA as an LOA that was voted on, and agreed to, by WestJet pilots, so as to supercede the existing portions of the CBA regarding seniority. An LOU that was accepted by the membership after the CBA was arbitrated amends the CBA.
Otherwise, do you think that all the LOAs and MOUs that were agreed to between management and the union in 2020 were separate from the CBA? Do you think that they existed in parallel to the CBA rather than amending the CBA for the term specified in those LOAs and MOUs? The entire purpose of an LOA or MOU is to amend the CBA, to change the CBA, to replace portions of the CBA. The PTA is not a separate document, it is part of WestJet's CBA!
I think you should leave labour law to the lawyers and focus on your actual profession instead if you don't even understand that.
SPR wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:43 pm
John, do you think that LOAs and MOUs exist independently of the CBA? The PTA was added to the WestJet CBA as an LOA that was voted on, and agreed to, by WestJet pilots, so as to supercede the existing portions of the CBA regarding seniority. An LOU that was accepted by the membership after the CBA was arbitrated amends the CBA.
Otherwise, do you think that all the LOAs and MOUs that were agreed to between management and the union in 2020 were separate from the CBA? Do you think that they existed in parallel to the CBA rather than amending the CBA for the term specified in those LOAs and MOUs? The entire purpose of an LOA or MOU is to amend the CBA, to change the CBA, to replace portions of the CBA. The PTA is not a separate document, it is part of WestJet's CBA!
I think you should leave labour law to the lawyers and focus on your actual profession instead if you don't even understand that.
I will ask you the same question I asked lurker:
If the PTA was cancelled today, following the 90 day wait period, on what list would a new hire pilot be placed?
SPR, ALPA continues to tell pilots, "KNOW YOUR CONTRACT!"
You come along and tell me I need to be a labour lawyer to interpret a pilot contract?
In any event, I have started the process to getting my hands on the Company maintained WPSL/PSL. This is the document created by the CBA and not extinguished by any succeeding agreement between ALPA and the Company.
Remember, the PTA preamble clearly states that it does not modify anything in the CBA unless explicitly stated. Nothing in the PTA specifically alters the WestJet Pilot Seniority List in any way. Zero. It remains as it was, the Seniority List for the bargaining unit.
Should the Company fail to provide me with a copy as the CBA says it should, I will ask ALPA to grieve it.
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:55 pm
I appreciate your sentiments OCP, and recognize sincerity. I disagree though. Before we get to the point of sitting down with SunWing pilots, our own pilots need clarity on what our own Seniority List looks like.
I have been unable so far to make inroads on convincing pilots that something is wrong. That will change. The truth can't be hidden.
Perhaps ALPA and the Company will revise the CBA to change the definition of seniority. I doubt it, but I suppose anything is possible.
When you say ALPA, who exactly are you referring to?
ALPApolicy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:47 am
Here is a screenshot of the cover page for the document that our Association places on the EFB. Note the titles of the various lists on the document. Where is the Company maintained PSL/WPSL specified in Section 3 of the PTA?
The first list is called "Seniority List". This erroneously titled document is the transfer list created by the PTA, and designed only to be used for transfers between companies. That makes sense because the agreement is called the Pilot TRANSFER Agreement.
From the PTA:
SENIORITY
2.01 A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.
This list was never intended to be used for anything else besides transfers.
Seniority rights in the bargaining unit remain based on the PSL/WPSL.
.
.
.
IMG_0478.jpg
Nope, it’s called the seniority list not the transfer list because…wait for it…..it’s the seniority list.
FlyingMonkey wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:20 amNope, it’s called the seniority list not the transfer list because…wait for it…..it’s the seniority list.
"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."
I have no dog in this fight but I have two questions:
1. Other people have said you have a seniority list. Why is it that you claim you don't have one?
2. I know that you have been at WS long enough that you are clearly not affected by this in the least. I applaud you for fighting for the little guy but why is it that I haven't heard of a single other person (especially those you claim are negatively impacted) raising this "issue"?
This is honestly such a stupid take. You should know so much better. It's hilarious that you'd invite ACPA to try and protect your seniority even though very recently ACPA stood behind a unified seniority list in the face of the Transat merger. What didn't ACPA do? They didn't try to split the seniority list up by Rouge pilots, Canadian, Jazz flow through (with super seniority as you like to say), grandfathered pay, DB/DC, etc etc. It's one seniority list at WestJet, get used to it.
elite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:03 pm
Why do you suppose a sizeable group of pilots (or at least a more vocal group) at WestJet are seemingly more concerned with conditions at Encore than they are at their own airline? Is it a brotherly love, is it that they have friends and relatives there, or do they believe that it would protect their own jobs? The best way to do that however, which is standard in the industry, is through strong negotiated scope clauses, not buying loyalty in exchange for reserved seniority.
One theory is that some members of a group (WPPA) that preceded ALPA in attempting to certify WJA pilots had this planned back in 2014. The speaker who speaks in the beginning of this clip and discusses a westjet pilot as being a pilot who flies a dash-8 or a 747. This speaker had a younger brother flying at Q400 @Encore. He would later become our first MEC Chair when the non-DOH seniority list was attached to the CBA.
Well, that may sound like a noble idea, provided everyone does it, otherwise the group that does it, does it to its own detriment. It can’t work in isolation because it does not value experience. But most importantly it doesn’t work in the context of separate companies and separate bargaining units, as plainly obvious!
