The wrong's with the industry

[Aspiredtofly]

Hi there everyone. I just don't understand this clearly but why do people comment things about the bad stuff the airlines or what the whole industry is doing or treating their pilots. Like for example I saw alot of these recent Westjet threads complaining about the net pay and years of service thingy. With air canada its always about the flat pay and working conditions I believe and the pilots who start working out as a flight instructor or at the regionals before they make it into the flag/major/LCC/ULCC say that they have made the worst decision getting into this career after quitting their day job or switching into this career. I saw others bashing pilots too. Plus the technological advancements can/might replace us out of the cockpit very soon. All of these things make me wonder if I'm getting into the right thing or not. From my point of view I'm currently young and can sacrifice years of my life before I get married and be responsible for the important things I have to undertake in the future I can work hard to get to the big name carriers but the fact that people complain about them here with alot things that can affect their and my career in the future makes me think if this is right career decision to make way or not. If there is someone who can explain the reality of this career path from getting trained to making it onto the big names then can you please share your thoughts, suggestions, struggles and things you did to get there and can you insight the wrongs that are happening over there with you guys.

[Roar]

Aspiredtofly,
If it’s your dream to be a commercial pilot then go for it and ignore all the bitter and twisted people on these forums.
I’m 25 years in and wouldn’t have traded it for any other career.
Aviation is like any other segment of society, you have happy upbeat people and the sour twisted ones, don’t get drug down by the latter and you’ll find it everything you dream it to be.

[ quote=Aspiredtofly post_id=1187924 time=1647769476 user_id=81282]
Hi there everyone. I just don't understand this clearly but why do people comment things about the bad stuff the airlines or what the whole industry is doing or treating their pilots. Like for example I saw alot of these recent Westjet threads complaining about the net pay and years of service thingy. With air canada its always about the flat pay and working conditions I believe and the pilots who start working out as a flight instructor or at the regionals before they make it into the flag/major/LCC/ULCC say that they have made the worst decision getting into this career after quitting their day job or switching into this career. I saw others bashing pilots too. Plus the technological advancements can/might replace us out of the cockpit very soon. All of these things make me wonder if I'm getting into the right thing or not. From my point of view I'm currently young and can sacrifice years of my life before I get married and be responsible for the important things I have to undertake in the future I can work hard to get to the big name carriers but the fact that people complain about them here with alot things that can affect their and my career in the future makes me think if this is right career decision to make way or not. If there is someone who can explain the reality of this career path from getting trained to making it onto the big names then can you please share your thoughts, suggestions, struggles and things you did to get there and can you insight the wrongs that are happening over there with you guys.
[/quote]

[WellThatAgedWell]

I think it’s good to ask what’s wrong with the industry, but only if you want to compare it to what is right with our industry at the same time.

The Aviation industry takes a beating in many ways and makes significant changes. It’s very easy to compare the airlines today to the airlines pre 9/11 and realize how many of the changes sucked the joy of this career out of people. If you made a list of how this industry has improved since 9/11 you probably wouldn’t find very many positives.

Travel passes- way more expensive, planes are nearly full all the time, many just book positive space travel.

Pay- pay has deteriorated significantly. Airlines (more specifically leisure travel) are the first to lose money during a downturn and the last to recover.

There are positives in this industry, it’s not all doom and gloom. The schedule and ability to travel might work for the right person at the right point in their life. Often times the schedule is not ideal for every part of your life and can be challenging when you have a family.

Comparison is the thief of joy. If you compare our industry to how things are in America you may feel underpaid. If you compare our industry to pre 9/11 you may feel we have to many rules and procedures. If you compare our industry to pre Covid you may realize our industry is actively shit on by our government’s, and we are about to be the only industry who continues to terminate unvaccinated staff when even hospitals are changing their policies.

If you look at the changes over the past couple decades, where do you expect the industry to be in two more decades when you near retirement? If history is a good way to predict the future expect substantial amount of change, disruption, furlough etc. if a little turbulence in a career doesn’t bother you and you are still fascinated with aviation I am sure you can have a great go at it and enjoy what it has to offer. There are lots of rewarding careers and for sure it’s worth looking into some of the jobs in aviation.

[Bede]

Are there things wrong with this industry? Sure, but no more than other industry. Point out another profession and I'll give you plenty of con's. Info from my friends:
Surgeons: ridiculous hours. $/hr not any higher than airline pilots when all the free time is factored in.
Family docs: get looked down on by specialists and crap on you for not knowing as much about their specialty as they do.
Lawyers: work free overtime for year in the "hopes" that you'll make partner. (BTW you only make partner when the other partners think that you're popular enough that if you leave, you'll take your clients with you.)
Professors: lots of education, good chance you won't find a professorship. Pay is slightly better than a school teacher, but fewer holidays and way more work.
Trades: repetitive use injuries. Good luck lasting to retirement doing physically demanding work.
Teachers: stupid kids.
Cops: deal with drunks all day with no thanks from opportunistic politicians and media.
Paramedics: massive PTSD. Few make it to retirement.

The point is that every profession has things about it that suck. It's best you look at your profession (and life) as optimistically as you can, and you'll be a much more content person.

[digits_]

Also note that the aviation industry !== airline industry. There's plenty of non-airline options, if it's airline stuff you don't like.

[co-joe]

I can only compare flying and the trades, but the toxic behaviour in aviation is off the charts. So many things are handed down that are just plain horrible. I liken it to becoming an actor or photographer, where there's always a line up of people willing to work an hour a day more for a buck an hour less or even to do it for free to get established, and all along the way are bitter jaded people trying to capitalize on that fact.

And then you get to Air Canada and life will be awesome, and you'll be rich, and the opposite sex will swoon over you, and you'll go on vacation to exotic places, and all your friends and family will fly for free...

[Minimums]

Ask yourself, and be honest, what do you really want out of life. This will be different from everyone.

Do you want to live in one location, or move frequently? Do you need to work in a job that provides good security, or are you ok with always being one event away from layoff? Do you like to travel frequently, or home with a good stable family life. Are you ok with constant changes and issues, or must you work in a set space and time [9-5 with weekends off]. Are you ok with making a mediocre wage for a good while, or do you need stable consistent income? Do you like being challenged on your decisions from time to time, or prefer to just do your job without any oversight?

A lot of us are geared to want to stay in one place for a long period of time, make a good secure income with job stability and a predictable schedule. Unfortunately, flying in the commercial world just doesn’t provide for that, unless you make a major carrier and are in the upper half of seniority, sacrificing half your working life to (maybe) get there.

If flying is your passion, cool, have at it. Find a job that provides sufficient income to buy your own aircraft and enjoy yourself. But from a lifestyle perspective, it’s just not there. Unless you’re divorced, single, and like living out of a suitcase and inly 1 major world event away from being out of a job with non-transferable skills.

Imho, get into the trades, get experienced, licensed and when you’re ready, start your own business, and buy that plane.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

This career if you want to call it that isn’t getting any better as the years roll on. More paperwork more regulations increased direct operating costs and guess what, the most malleable expense is wages. This was a good trade to make money 40 years ago, it’s just not there anymore. Automation is here to stay and rapidly advancing. Do yourself a favour get yourself a real career and revisit flying as a hobby. They don’t say we all get AIDS in this racket for nothing. I’m seeing more guys in their 30s and 40s with many years ahead of them in this career abandoning ship than ever in the decades before that I’ve witnessed.

CANADIAN aviation affords;

PROS
•you have to travel for work
•you get to fly
•you get to say you fly


CONS
•you have to travel for work
•bad pay
•bad schedule
•toxic working environment
••managers that have lasted long enough to take their roles are usually twisted and chewed up from years of abuse, their underlings will always pay for that one way or another (wether they intend that or not)
••back stabbing is the norm for advancement
••there’s always someone willing to work for less, free, or even to pay to fly revenue to get ahead of you (I’ve seen it first hand, I can’t make this sh1t up)
•you will be competing with more and more foreign non immigrant pilots
•benefits are marginal to bad and largely non existent
•travel demand is still way down due to COVID19 and other current world unrest it’s going to be several years for there to be an uptick in flying demand

I can’t honestly say I or any of my many peers would recommend this industry as a way to earn a decent living to anyone in good faith. Choose wisely

[ant_321]

Not everyone is as negative about aviation as most of the posts here would have you believe. I had 18 months to think about life and consider a career change. After doing the Monday-Friday soul sucking experience for those 18 months I’ve decided flying is it for me. Even without the love for flying the schedule is enough to do it for me. Most crusty pilots who complain about the schedule have never done the Monday-Friday work, eat, sleep routine before. I missed way more with my family than I ever have flying. Most everyone I’ve flown with since coming back to work feel the same way.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Not everyone is as negative about aviation as most of the posts here would have you believe. I had 18 months to think about life and consider a career change. After doing the Monday-Friday soul sucking experience for those 18 months I’ve decided flying is it for me. Even without the love for flying the schedule is enough to do it for me. Most crusty pilots who complain about the schedule have never done the Monday-Friday work, eat, sleep routine before. I missed way more with my family than I ever have flying. Most everyone I’ve flown with since coming back to work feel the same way.

What is your schedule if you don’t mind my asking?

[ant_321]

Not everyone is as negative about aviation as most of the posts here would have you believe. I had 18 months to think about life and consider a career change. After doing the Monday-Friday soul sucking experience for those 18 months I’ve decided flying is it for me. Even without the love for flying the schedule is enough to do it for me. Most crusty pilots who complain about the schedule have never done the Monday-Friday work, eat, sleep routine before. I missed way more with my family than I ever have flying. Most everyone I’ve flown with since coming back to work feel the same way.

What is your schedule if you don’t mind my asking?

Varies a lot. I’m a junior captain at swg. Anywhere from 8 days in a month and home every night to my worst month 18 days work and on the road for those 18 days. After doing the Monday-Friday thing I felt I had way more useful time off being gone 18 days in a month.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Not everyone is as negative about aviation as most of the posts here would have you believe. I had 18 months to think about life and consider a career change. After doing the Monday-Friday soul sucking experience for those 18 months I’ve decided flying is it for me. Even without the love for flying the schedule is enough to do it for me. Most crusty pilots who complain about the schedule have never done the Monday-Friday work, eat, sleep routine before. I missed way more with my family than I ever have flying. Most everyone I’ve flown with since coming back to work feel the same way.

What is your schedule if you don’t mind my asking?

Varies a lot. I’m a junior captain at swg. Anywhere from 8 days in a month and home every night to my worst month 18 days work and on the road for those 18 days. After doing the Monday-Friday thing I felt I had way more useful time off being gone 18 days in a month.

18 days gone. That’s basically 2.5 weeks gone 1.5 home. To me that sucks. My minimum is one day off for every day gone from home these days. You’d be better off Monday to Friday in a desk job imo. I’m an AME as well, so it was easier for me to transfer skills. Been doing this gig long enough to know it’s not worth it unless you’re contract and have your own schedule (which I do)

[ant_321]

What is your schedule if you don’t mind my asking?

Varies a lot. I’m a junior captain at swg. Anywhere from 8 days in a month and home every night to my worst month 18 days work and on the road for those 18 days. After doing the Monday-Friday thing I felt I had way more useful time off being gone 18 days in a month.

18 days gone. That’s basically 2.5 weeks gone 1.5 home. To me that sucks. My minimum is one day off for every day gone from home these days. You’d be better off Monday to Friday in a desk job imo. I’m an AME as well, so it was easier for me to transfer skills. Been doing this gig long enough to know it’s not worth it unless you’re contract and have your own schedule (which I do)

That was my worst month. It’s happened 2-3 times in 7 years. I average about 12 days per month worked with a mix of pairings and single days. I just think Monday to Friday is horrendous. So much so that when I was looking at other possible careers I would only consider things that could be shift work or a rotational kind of thing.

[hithere]

One other consideration in this airline pilot business is the potential for career-ending loss of medical. It can happen to anyone, anytime through no fault of their own. Even if you are healthy now and have a Cat 1 medical you are one serious Cardiac, neurological, psychiatric, cancer or accident etc event away from having to switch careers to one that does not require medical certification.

[-42]

On the maintenance side the career is horrible I know from personal experience. On the pilot side I know it’s horrible from many friends dead, divorced, burnt out, drunk, AIDS, rehab, exhausted from red eyes, bitchy flight attendants, ex wives, kids they never see, shitty managers. That goes for airlines, commuters, bush ops, doesn’t seem to matter. Finish your flight to gander in February and get to your 3 star hotel at 2am to find nothing open so you make soup in your coffee maker and eat a can of sardines from your three day old lunch bag. No more chicken or beef choice in the cockpit. Your too expensive. Then sleep in a different time zone and a different 3 star hotel and maybe get a 8 dollar breakfast bun at Starbucks or Tim’s if it’s open. Sounds shitty? I don’t know sound pretty shitty to me. I haven’t met one single pilot in 25 years that has been super happy. 8:30-4:30 Mon-Friday are government hours. Ever wonder why? Because there is life after that and your circadian rhythm is actually respected hence longevity and happiness.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Varies a lot. I’m a junior captain at swg. Anywhere from 8 days in a month and home every night to my worst month 18 days work and on the road for those 18 days. After doing the Monday-Friday thing I felt I had way more useful time off being gone 18 days in a month.

18 days gone. That’s basically 2.5 weeks gone 1.5 home. To me that sucks. My minimum is one day off for every day gone from home these days. You’d be better off Monday to Friday in a desk job imo. I’m an AME as well, so it was easier for me to transfer skills. Been doing this gig long enough to know it’s not worth it unless you’re contract and have your own schedule (which I do)

That was my worst month. It’s happened 2-3 times in 7 years. I average about 12 days per month worked with a mix of pairings and single days. I just think Monday to Friday is horrendous. So much so that when I was looking at other possible careers I would only consider things that could be shift work or a rotational kind of thing.

Gotcha there’s lots out there btw, I’m not a 9 to 5 guy either I like doing bigger days and enjoying my time off

[rookiepilot]

I am not in the industry but I like to help young folks who ask so will comment.

I am a 1000 hour CPL who has only flown for personal and volunteer reasons.

As others have said figure out who you are and what you like to do, and the rest follows. I love to fly but never seriously saw a career in it for reasons listed. I love solving puzzles more, so started my own small business in finance.

This choice has meant hard work, high risk, aggravating, stressful and never any security for 25 years, many highs and lows but never dull and totally my own schedule with complete freedom. Don’t need to work anymore but still strangely enjoy the game.

Love aviation, if a different person would have been very happy making a go at it. My other concerns in the intermediate term is the structural fragility of the economy I’ve written about a lot, from inflation and oil prices to the debt out there.

Find what in life you'd do for free happily if you could, thats your path. Good luck

[Aspiredtofly]

I liked that everyone gave their own opinion on what this career might look like actually. I agree there are alot of concerning cons when it comes to being an airline pilot especially, from being jet lagged to getting low paid at least for a few years is something I don't want to do either but be it any other job everyone has their own pro's and con's for each. Well the reason why I choose the pilot career side is because I had a passion too, from residing at a place where the airport was pretty close to seeing massive aluminium structures taking off and landing was always breathtaking for me. I still look up wondering the sky of where the plane is when I hear the sound of the engines roaring at the corner. Not to mention but I also got the oppertunity to visit the boeing 747 cockpit back in 2012, will never forget those happy crew faces when I met them. I think I'll probably also get a degree in MBA in finance or something which can help me out if I lose my medical (hope not), during a furlough or starting my own business likely. Well for now I'm just busy focusing on getting my training done and then moving on to the instructing side build time and then move on to a small multi-engine aircraft operator and then will probably move on to jazz if the pilot garunteed interview still exists with AC hopefully.

[TG]

Like already mentioned, it is not just about airlines and making it to the "Majors"
Quite a few others options as pilot to join lifestyle and career.

[Eric Janson]

Hi there everyone. I just don't understand this clearly but why do people comment things about the bad stuff the airlines or what the whole industry is doing or treating their pilots. Like for example I saw alot of these recent Westjet threads complaining about the net pay and years of service thingy. With air canada its always about the flat pay and working conditions I believe and the pilots who start working out as a flight instructor or at the regionals before they make it into the flag/major/LCC/ULCC say that they have made the worst decision getting into this career after quitting their day job or switching into this career. I saw others bashing pilots too. Plus the technological advancements can/might replace us out of the cockpit very soon. All of these things make me wonder if I'm getting into the right thing or not. From my point of view I'm currently young and can sacrifice years of my life before I get married and be responsible for the important things I have to undertake in the future I can work hard to get to the big name carriers but the fact that people complain about them here with alot things that can affect their and my career in the future makes me think if this is right career decision to make way or not. If there is someone who can explain the reality of this career path from getting trained to making it onto the big names then can you please share your thoughts, suggestions, struggles and things you did to get there and can you insight the wrongs that are happening over there with you guys.

There's more to this Industry than working at the "Big Names".

Plenty of smaller Airlines that have a lot to offer.

Some people choose to spend their career flying in the Bush or seasonal work Firefighting.

It all comes down to personal preference.

I don't work for a "Big Name" - however I kept my job and salary these past 2 years.

[complexintentions]

This is completely true. It is also true that the industry is vastly more than just "Canada".

Also, once reaching certain thresholds of experience, flying skills are most certainly transferable.

If one has to be convinced that this is the career for you - it isn't.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

On the maintenance side the career is horrible I know from personal experience. On the pilot side I know it’s horrible from many friends dead, divorced, burnt out, drunk, AIDS, rehab, exhausted from red eyes, bitchy flight attendants, ex wives, kids they never see, shitty managers. That goes for airlines, commuters, bush ops, doesn’t seem to matter. Finish your flight to gander in February and get to your 3 star hotel at 2am to find nothing open so you make soup in your coffee maker and eat a can of sardines from your three day old lunch bag. No more chicken or beef choice in the cockpit. Your too expensive. Then sleep in a different time zone and a different 3 star hotel and maybe get a 8 dollar breakfast bun at Starbucks or Tim’s if it’s open. Sounds shitty? I don’t know sound pretty shitty to me. I haven’t met one single pilot in 25 years that has been super happy. 8:30-4:30 Mon-Friday are government hours. Ever wonder why? Because there is life after that and your circadian rhythm is actually respected hence longevity and happiness.

All very true, Canadas operators have created this crap work condition particularly since (open skies) or the evolution of free trade in the late 80’s. Maintenance didn’t suck until shortly after the late 90s, has been a downward spiral ever since, including the flying game, both of which I have never seen in such horrible shape. It will not get better for years if ever without something drastic to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

On the maintenance side the career is horrible I know from personal experience. On the pilot side I know it’s horrible from many friends dead, divorced, burnt out, drunk, AIDS, rehab, exhausted from red eyes, bitchy flight attendants, ex wives, kids they never see, shitty managers. That goes for airlines, commuters, bush ops, doesn’t seem to matter. Finish your flight to gander in February and get to your 3 star hotel at 2am to find nothing open so you make soup in your coffee maker and eat a can of sardines from your three day old lunch bag. No more chicken or beef choice in the cockpit. Your too expensive. Then sleep in a different time zone and a different 3 star hotel and maybe get a 8 dollar breakfast bun at Starbucks or Tim’s if it’s open. Sounds shitty? I don’t know sound pretty shitty to me. I haven’t met one single pilot in 25 years that has been super happy. 8:30-4:30 Mon-Friday are government hours. Ever wonder why? Because there is life after that and your circadian rhythm is actually respected hence longevity and happiness.

All very true, Canadas operators have created this crap work condition particularly since “open skies” aka the evolution of free trade in the late 80’s. Maintenance didn’t suck until shortly after the late 90s, has been a downward spiral ever since, including the flying game, both of which I have never seen in such horrible shape. More litigation, more liability, ever continuing under slashing rates coupled with companies moving money around from other avenues of income for tax reasons has bred the worst industry imaginable for the average pilot or ame. It will not get better for years if ever without something drastic to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am hopeful that wages and work conditions for Canadian pilots will improve eventually. Whenever I speak to young people, I see most aren't interested in flying or any hands on work really and would rather learn to program or work in some sort of office job. Combined with the high costs of flight training, I am hopeful we will see a pilot shortage in a few years and airlines will have to start raising pay.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I am hopeful that wages and work conditions for Canadian pilots will improve eventually. Whenever I speak to young people, I see most aren't interested in flying or any hands on work really and would rather learn to program or work in some sort of office job. Combined with the high costs of flight training, I am hopeful we will see a pilot shortage in a few years and airlines will have to start raising pay.

You said it, years, it’s going to take YEARS if ever at all.