Hiring Minimums

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imjustlurking
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by imjustlurking »

I am cautiously optimistic that good things are coming.

WS and WO are preparing for contract negotiations, WG is potentially going to join which will bring a noticeable increase in passengers coming to WS/WO/WR, and WR is hiring and contract negotiations will happen next year.

As long as the ones that are extremely vocal on AvCanada are a minority at WJ, we should see good things to come :)
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FlyAlberta
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by FlyAlberta »

Blackdog0301 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:58 pm Swoop has been running a new hire ground school consisting of 15-18 pilots every week for almost a month now from what I understand, and there's no end in sight.


Not correct unfortunately. I’d be surprised if they had the capacity to do 15 new hires per month let alone per week. Any classes up until now have been recalls. First “new hire” Swoop class since Covid is Encore flowees starting in April. Mainline…TBD. (July?)
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Airbrake
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Airbrake »

The Swoop ground schools in Apr are
Apr 4th - 14 spots (full)
Apr 11th - 12 spots (full)
Apr 18th - 12 spots (not filled yet)
May 2nd - 12 spots (not filled yet)

With a bid from WestJet coming possibly this week the Swoop hiring will go indefinitely.
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goingmissed
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by goingmissed »

Airbrake wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:48 pm With a bid from WestJet coming possibly this week the Swoop hiring will go indefinitely.
Inshallah
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igorcanuck
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by igorcanuck »

FlyAlberta wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:36 am
Blackdog0301 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:58 pm Swoop has been running a new hire ground school consisting of 15-18 pilots every week for almost a month now from what I understand, and there's no end in sight.


Not correct unfortunately. I’d be surprised if they had the capacity to do 15 new hires per month let alone per week. Any classes up until now have been recalls. First “new hire” Swoop class since Covid is Encore flowees starting in April. Mainline…TBD. (July?)
You’re wrong. Swoop had 3 GS on March, 15-18 pilots each. All OTS pilots. Sim training in Europe paid by Boeing.
Stop spreading wrong information here.
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Blackdog0301
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Blackdog0301 »

FlyAlberta wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:36 am
Blackdog0301 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:58 pm Swoop has been running a new hire ground school consisting of 15-18 pilots every week for almost a month now from what I understand, and there's no end in sight.


Not correct unfortunately. I’d be surprised if they had the capacity to do 15 new hires per month let alone per week. Any classes up until now have been recalls. First “new hire” Swoop class since Covid is Encore flowees starting in April. Mainline…TBD. (July?)
It is correct. A friend of mine started March 1 as an OTS hire. :rolleyes:
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Oleo 4
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Oleo 4 »

Information is correct. Class 5 starts early next month. Many new instructors brought on to help with the influx of new hire classes. Training in Europe also correct using our own metal to get to and from vs. Two flight commute on third party carriers.
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goingmissed
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by goingmissed »

Oleo 4 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:13 am Information is correct. Class 5 starts early next month. Many new instructors brought on to help with the influx of new hire classes. Training in Europe also correct using our own metal to get to and from vs. Two flight commute on third party carriers.
Swoop 738s are going to fly transatlantic, or are they getting sent on a WS 789?
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igorcanuck
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by igorcanuck »

goingmissed wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:06 am
Oleo 4 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:13 am Information is correct. Class 5 starts early next month. Many new instructors brought on to help with the influx of new hire classes. Training in Europe also correct using our own metal to get to and from vs. Two flight commute on third party carriers.
Swoop 738s are going to fly transatlantic, or are they getting sent on a WS 789?
Swoop initial GS is done by Westjet, using all their resources.
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goingmissed
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by goingmissed »

igorcanuck wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:51 pm
goingmissed wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:06 am
Oleo 4 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:13 am Information is correct. Class 5 starts early next month. Many new instructors brought on to help with the influx of new hire classes. Training in Europe also correct using our own metal to get to and from vs. Two flight commute on third party carriers.
Swoop 738s are going to fly transatlantic, or are they getting sent on a WS 789?
Swoop initial GS is done by Westjet, using all their resources.
Swoop training is done by WestJet in WestJet simulators? Do they have the same AOM and instructors?

Why would a Swoop pilot be paid less than a WestJet pilot then?
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sstaurus
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by sstaurus »

goingmissed wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:11 pm Why would a Swoop pilot be paid less than a WestJet pilot then?
That’s the million dollar question…
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goldeneagle
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by goldeneagle »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:36 pm In a year there is going to be a huge pilot shortage.
That's what they told me when I was getting cpl, and we heard it year on year ever since. I was directly involved in hiring of pilots from 2000 till 2018. During that entire period I dont think we ever had less than 50 qualified resume on file for the seat when it became vacant.
goingmissed wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:11 pm Why would a Swoop pilot be paid less than a WestJet pilot then?
Because they accepted a job offer at that rate.

I've been around the aviation biz for many years, and one thing I can say with certainty, there is always going to be somebody willing to do the job cheaper. I remember well a day back in '82, the place I was working at had an opening, candidate was in the office with the owner as they watched me pull up to the pumps in an Aztec on a beautiful sunny morning. Candidate said to the owner 'I would do that job for free'. Owner took him up on it. I ended up leaving shortly thereafter, was replaced by another candidate willing to work 'for hours in the book'.

There will always be somebody in the line willing to work cheaper in order to get hours, type rating, base, schedule or some combination of those.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

All Swoop pilot training now done by WJ instructors. I was told by someone in the training dept that several senior instructors quit their roles over this, hence the sudden need to hire a bunch more WJ sim instructors from the junior ranks. Who will now be outsourced to a different company to provide training. :|
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

goldeneagle wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:24 pm
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:36 pm In a year there is going to be a huge pilot shortage.
That's what they told me when I was getting cpl, and we heard it year on year ever since. I was directly involved in hiring of pilots from 2000 till 2018. During that entire period I dont think we ever had less than 50 qualified resume on file for the seat when it became vacant.
In almost 40 years in commercial aviation I never saw what I saw in late 2019. Pilots going directly from a C 172 to a Dash 8, or Class 4 instructor to Training Captain at a regional in 2.5 years.

COVID stopped everything but if we go back to the same level of flying as December 2019 than I don’t see how there won’t be a shortage given the wave of early retirements ( including you as I recall) and the new FIight and Duty time rules which require about 10% more pilots to fly the same schedule.

I also know one zero to hero hire on the Q who was at a regional for about 9 months before the layoffs. He set up an IT business and is now making 2.5 times more than he made as an FO. He looks at his flying career as been there, done that and is not going back to the junior FO roller coaster. I don’t he is the only one…
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goingmissed
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by goingmissed »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:50 pm
goldeneagle wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:24 pm
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:36 pm In a year there is going to be a huge pilot shortage.
That's what they told me when I was getting cpl, and we heard it year on year ever since. I was directly involved in hiring of pilots from 2000 till 2018. During that entire period I dont think we ever had less than 50 qualified resume on file for the seat when it became vacant.
In almost 40 years in commercial aviation I never saw what I saw in late 2019. Pilots going directly from a C 172 to a Dash 8, or Class 4 instructor to Training Captain at a regional in 2.5 years.

COVID stopped everything but if we go back to the same level of flying as December 2019 than I don’t see how there won’t be a shortage given the wave of early retirements ( including you as I recall) and the new FIight and Duty time rules which require about 10% more pilots to fly the same schedule.

I also know one zero to hero hire on the Q who was at a regional for about 9 months before the layoffs. He set up an IT business and is now making 2.5 times more than he made as an FO. He looks at his flying career as been there, done that and is not going back to the junior FO roller coaster. I don’t he is the only one…
Pay at Canadian airlines is a joke at the expense of the pilots.
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petey
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by petey »

goingmissed wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:32 pm
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:50 pm
goldeneagle wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:24 pm

That's what they told me when I was getting cpl, and we heard it year on year ever since. I was directly involved in hiring of pilots from 2000 till 2018. During that entire period I dont think we ever had less than 50 qualified resume on file for the seat when it became vacant.
Pay at Canadian airlines is a joke at the expense of the pilots.
Canadian pilots are a joke, for accepting the pay.
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PeterParker
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by PeterParker »

I’ve said it a few times before on these forums before but we really ought to stop blaming each other for shitty pay in the industry. Exactly what corporate Canada wants us to do. Loads of factors at play from wanting to not default at paying student loans, mortgages to sheer desperation to get a foot in the door. Let’s work together to ensure that even if someone does something silly, we stand together and bring up Pilot pay as a group. If not, things will never change, come what may.
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Tolip
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Tolip »

FlyAlberta wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:56 pm
Tolip wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:55 am
Conflicting Traffic wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:41 am
You raise some good points. but Encore is running two new-hire groundschools in April. Dates are set, hiring is done.


In the sense that we never had an actual shortage pre-COVID either (many peoples' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding), you're probably right. But I expect we'll return to something close to the pre-COVID healthy job market sometime this year. An actual shortage is still possible, but I suspect you're right that it will take longer to show up (if it does at all).
Your right I had forgotten that encore did actually post a date for their new hire Gs's, but still isn't it for like 20.people total and only two classes? Beyond that there is still no other plans I've herd, Jazz only posted a new hire posting like a few weeks ago. So they will be a while before they actually get to running a groundschool. And with the international market still being so bad. AC wont require new hires ( eventhough they will likly run some as I mentioned above) and as for WJ, with their sunwing merger and integration I dont see much room.for newhires there (again they will run afew classes to appease flow)

For me, I classify a pilot shortage as when my union actually has some bargaining power. So from what I am.seeing, we are far far from that.

WJ is cautiously optimistic that this summer will be at or above pre Covid levels

Encore is running 2 classes every month for the remainder of the year starting April 4. That’s north of 150 new pilots at Encore alone.

Swoop starts new hire classes in April.

WJ mainline has vacancies as of the June bid.


That’s just the WJ group…..

I’d be willing to bet my left nut that we’ll be in a pilot shortage pickle by the end of this year.
I cant disprove the things your saying, but I can be extremely skeptical tho. North of 150 pilots going to encore by end of year? Their whole pilot group is only 500, your saying they are increasing their pilot size by a third? To serve what reason? That literally makes no sence. Their current pilot size was working in 2019, and we arnt even close to those flying levels yet. Why would they add a third more pilots? As for swoop, I've herd of internal hires and a couple OTS hires, but nothing much other then that. And wj has made zero commitment to additional hires other then to say "we are optimistic".

This is another case of wishful thinking, over hyping demand and getting pilots expectations up for the "pilot shortage". The only people i have seen being hired with any large 705 airline latly has had thousands of hours, and loads of 705 experience. We arnt even remotely close to 2019 hiring practices. Same goes for other canadian airlines. With the exception of porter, seems like they are going full steam ahead regardless of any consequences
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bob99
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by bob99 »

Their pilot size was absolutely not working in 2019. They were extremely short staffed, cancelling flights all over the place, couldn't flow anyone, and couldn't hire fast enough. I have several friends still at Encore applying to places like Porter and Lynx, they'll leave for just about anywhere they can, add in some flow and attrition to AC- I don't doubt they'll want to get ahead of things while they can. AC will have new hire classes every month starting in May. That alone will create a lot of movement everywhere else.
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Airbrake
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Re: Hiring Minimums

Post by Airbrake »

WestJet had a bid come out that has 737, 787, Swoop & Encore positions.

There are lots of anticipated positions. How many actual is tbd.
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