The end of Rouge?

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Dias
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Dias »

newlygrounded wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:10 pm
Do you honestly think they'd ditch acpa? Every concession has came at the cost of the junior guys, so any old timers wouldn't care, the dues are "cheaper" as well so the people who don't care have nothing to gain.
Yes. The old timers are outnumbered now.
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altiplano
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by altiplano »

"Oldtimer" is only a mindset as it relates to this, another comment above was right on, it is divisive, it isn't realty as far as votes or support are concerned.

Status quo versus the rest is the reality.

We need the rest on board whenever they were hired.
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a220hereicome
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by a220hereicome »

Localizer wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:30 pm Ditch ACPA, join ALPA and pattern bargain like they do in the US, works for them, why wouldn’t it work here?
Pattern bargain with whom? Transat and WJ? Jazz? Nothing in their CA that I want to chase.

Pattern bargain with the US airlines? Great idea, but can you show me one arbitration decision in any industry in Canada that referenced wages in the US? Ever? I’ve never seen or heard of one, definitely not in the airline industry.

The auto workers basically invented the concept. In Canada (pre UNIFOR, pre CAW when they were still in the larger UAW) they didn’t pattern bargain with their US counterparts. Only amongst themselves in Canada, from what I remember of the 1980s UAW era.

If you’re telling me the plan after we join ALPA is ‘pattern bargaining’ I’d like you to explain how you think that is going to work and how it benefits Air Canada pilots.
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eurotrash
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by eurotrash »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:28 am
Localizer wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:30 pm Ditch ACPA, join ALPA and pattern bargain like they do in the US, works for them, why wouldn’t it work here?
Pattern bargain with whom? Transat and WJ? Jazz? Nothing in their CA that I want to chase.

Pattern bargain with the US airlines? Great idea, but can you show me one arbitration decision in any industry in Canada that referenced wages in the US? Ever? I’ve never seen or heard of one, definitely not in the airline industry.

The auto workers basically invented the concept. In Canada (pre UNIFOR, pre CAW when they were still in the larger UAW) they didn’t pattern bargain with their US counterparts. Only amongst themselves in Canada, from what I remember of the 1980s UAW era.

If you’re telling me the plan after we join ALPA is ‘pattern bargaining’ I’d like you to explain how you think that is going to work and how it benefits Air Canada pilots.
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
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aeronauticaldisaster
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by aeronauticaldisaster »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:28 am
Localizer wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:30 pm Ditch ACPA, join ALPA and pattern bargain like they do in the US, works for them, why wouldn’t it work here?
Pattern bargain with whom? Transat and WJ? Jazz? Nothing in their CA that I want to chase.

Pattern bargain with the US airlines? Great idea, but can you show me one arbitration decision in any industry in Canada that referenced wages in the US? Ever? I’ve never seen or heard of one, definitely not in the airline industry.

The auto workers basically invented the concept. In Canada (pre UNIFOR, pre CAW when they were still in the larger UAW) they didn’t pattern bargain with their US counterparts. Only amongst themselves in Canada, from what I remember of the 1980s UAW era.

If you’re telling me the plan after we join ALPA is ‘pattern bargaining’ I’d like you to explain how you think that is going to work and how it benefits Air Canada pilots.
Good thing WJ had ALPA and didn't pattern bargain after ACPA's "10% off" to do cargo deal

Geezus

ACPA had some serious disasters in negotiations. Yikes!
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Montroyal
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Montroyal »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:28 am
Localizer wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:30 pm Ditch ACPA, join ALPA and pattern bargain like they do in the US, works for them, why wouldn’t it work here?
Pattern bargain with whom? Transat and WJ? Jazz? Nothing in their CA that I want to chase.

Pattern bargain with the US airlines? Great idea, but can you show me one arbitration decision in any industry in Canada that referenced wages in the US? Ever? I’ve never seen or heard of one, definitely not in the airline industry.

The auto workers basically invented the concept. In Canada (pre UNIFOR, pre CAW when they were still in the larger UAW) they didn’t pattern bargain with their US counterparts. Only amongst themselves in Canada, from what I remember of the 1980s UAW era.

If you’re telling me the plan after we join ALPA is ‘pattern bargaining’ I’d like you to explain how you think that is going to work and how it benefits Air Canada pilots.
This

If you are ever wondering how new hire Legacy airline pilots make less than Flair, an Ultra Low Cost Carrier, or how it has the lowest paid widebody FOs in the world, just read this post
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a220hereicome
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by a220hereicome »

eurotrash wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.
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crashpadcommute
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by crashpadcommute »

Don't AC Flight Attendants literally make more than pilot new hires now?
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dumpsterfire
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by dumpsterfire »

Well
crashpadcommute wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:41 pm Don't AC Flight Attendants literally make more than pilot new hires now?
Service Directors make more than year 1 & 2 pilots

So maybe ACPA could "pattern bargain" with the Flight Attendants? What a dumpster fire...who let things get this bad?
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altiplano
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by altiplano »

Fück pattern bargaining.

If be happy with any bargaining at all... as is ACPA MEC & Negots just rolls over and accepts everything coming down from the HQ.

They have their way with us in the contract talks, then they have their way with us again in every whiff of an MOA or LOU, and then they really fück it home when they interpret it however they want and govern by bulletin and FOM update... meanwhile ACPA says nothing... don't rich the boat, keep us working no matter what, because we're the only income this association and it's bloated staff have...

We still haven't realised that there's sand in the Vaseline...
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rudder
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by rudder »

ACPA added 2000 new members between 2015-2019. ACPA will add a further 500 new members between May 2022-June 2023.

Isn’t 2500 new members who will spend between 4-6 years (due COVID layoff) on flat pay enough to demand a representational review?

There is an ‘open period’ in 2023. Failing a merger agreement between ALPA and ACPA, that would be the next legal opportunity for the AC pilots to change representation.

I wonder if any of the 2500 are willing to pick up the ball?
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Bede
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Bede »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:28 am
Pattern bargain with whom? Transat and WJ? Jazz? Nothing in their CA that I want to chase.
WJ: better new hire pay, better vacation, more money contributed to WSP than AC contributes to pension, stock option replacement, no discount for cargo pilots.

Lots of things worse too, but you try to keep your good parts and capture others good parts.
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Fanblade
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Fanblade »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:21 pm
eurotrash wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.

We STOP thinking with a shortsighted perspective. We STOP doing what we think is best for us, with no regard for the profession, new people in the pipeline, or the consequences we create at other carriers.

We STOP leading the pack lower. We STOP initiating lower compensation and working conditions.


In Summary. We STOP one downing each other.

We START one upping each other.

It took US carriers a decade to recover after all the bankruptcies following 911. But they did it slowly by one upping each other. We can do it too.

But constantly stepping backwards, is taking us and everyone around us, in the wrong direction.



Who has one of the lowest wages for new hires in the industry?

Who pays FO’s one of the lowest wages as a percent of Captain pay in the industry?

Who never recovered their wages after CCAA like other carriers?

Who lowered FO and RP wages in 2014?

Who agreed to lower their wages for a leisure start up?

Who agreed to lower their wages for a cargo start up?

Who uses RP instead of FO’s and allowed them to be paid a fraction of FO wages?

Who voluntarily gave up their DB pension for new hires in 2014?

Who expanded new hire pay from 2 years to 4 years when other carriers were going from 2 to 1 year?

Who lowered the bar with best fit reserve?

Who has no commuter policy?

Who has union reps that sound like management?


Hint: It’s a four letter acronym. Often used in a derogatory sense in conversation. It starts with an A and ends with an A. But it is not ALPA.
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Transition9er2
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Transition9er2 »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:21 pm
eurotrash wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.


I’m not sure why everyone plays into 220’s hands so much here. Clearly this person is senior and/or in management based on what I’ve read in the past and they love causing chaos on this site.

All this person cares about is shifting the conversation or causing thread drift… they’re a troll and they know it.

There’s a lot of passion here for change which is great, ignore 220, stop giving them so much energy and keep pulling together in the same direction.

Just a thought,

T.
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Localizer
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Localizer »

a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:21 pm
eurotrash wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.

“The point of pattern bargaining is to neutralize wage competition, prevent unions from being whipsawed by employers for worse contract terms, and to provide a foundation to move wages, benefits, and conditions ahead.”

So if your an AC pilot, and I’d call that the top of the food chain in Canadian aviation, you won’t see a big gain in the beginning. You’ll see the gains in the smaller companies around you, and in turn bring them to your level and preventing the whipsaw effect from lowering your own wage in the future, rather raising all wages together.

In order to make this work to its full potential we need everyone on the same page, same union, and to union drive at all levels of aviation to keep the standard the same.
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Fanblade
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Fanblade »

Transition9er2 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:10 am
a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:21 pm
eurotrash wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.


I’m not sure why everyone plays into 220’s hands so much here. Clearly this person is senior and/or in management based on what I’ve read in the past and they love causing chaos on this site.

All this person cares about is shifting the conversation or causing thread drift… they’re a troll and they know it.

There’s a lot of passion here for change which is great, ignore 220, stop giving them so much energy and keep pulling together in the same direction.

Just a thought,

T.
Point taken.

Although he could just as easily be an ACPA rep. Many of them sound like management
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flyingfool
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by flyingfool »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:01 pm
Transition9er2 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:10 am
a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:21 pm

Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.


I’m not sure why everyone plays into 220’s hands so much here. Clearly this person is senior and/or in management based on what I’ve read in the past and they love causing chaos on this site.

All this person cares about is shifting the conversation or causing thread drift… they’re a troll and they know it.

There’s a lot of passion here for change which is great, ignore 220, stop giving them so much energy and keep pulling together in the same direction.

Just a thought,

T.
Point taken.

Although he could just as easily be an ACPA rep. Many of them sound like management
Based on the performance of ACPA, I'd say he is an ACPA rep, which explains the joint

Defensive, projects ACPA problems on other groups, rationalizes poor performance and generally doesn't want what is best for the pilot group due to personal vendettas and rejection issues.

It's quite sad
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a220hereicome
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by a220hereicome »

Localizer wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:46 am
a220hereicome wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:21 pm
eurotrash wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Are you suggesting that an organization with 90 years of experience in this exact business, with resources and capabilities that an independent association could only dream of - is inferior to ACPA?
Nope.

I’m asking him to explain how he thinks pattern bargaining is going to work for Air Canada pilots.

Because that’s what he said we should do. Join ALPA, and then we’ll be able to pattern bargain. I’d just like it explained to me, that’s all.

“The point of pattern bargaining is to neutralize wage competition, prevent unions from being whipsawed by employers for worse contract terms, and to provide a foundation to move wages, benefits, and conditions ahead.”

So if your an AC pilot, and I’d call that the top of the food chain in Canadian aviation, you won’t see a big gain in the beginning. You’ll see the gains in the smaller companies around you, and in turn bring them to your level and preventing the whipsaw effect from lowering your own wage in the future, rather raising all wages together.

In order to make this work to its full potential we need everyone on the same page, same union, and to union drive at all levels of aviation to keep the standard the same.
Excellent explanation, thank you.

This will be awesome for WJ and AT.

One other question. When we hand over $25M to ALPA, do we get a break on dues for the first few years? Or is that our initiation fee?
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by Localizer »

a220hereicome wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:51 pm

Excellent explanation, thank you.

This will be awesome for WJ and AT.

One other question. When we hand over $25M to ALPA, do we get a break on dues for the first few years? Or is that our initiation fee?
You are correct, it would be awesome for WJ, AT and many other pilot groups working toward one goal, improving the industry for everyone involved. If we take a look at the past it’s not hard to see the consistent whipsaw that AC management has used to lower pilot wages. It’s time to stop repeating the mistakes of the past and stop allowing wedges to keep pilots against one another. United we stand, divided we fall .. it’s not just a saying.

As for ACPA’s CIH, I’m not the ALPA president, maybe that’s a better question to send up the flag pole.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: The end of Rouge?

Post by JoeyBarton »

rudder wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:11 am ACPA added 2000 new members between 2015-2019. ACPA will add a further 500 new members between May 2022-June 2023.

Isn’t 2500 new members who will spend between 4-6 years (due COVID layoff) on flat pay enough to demand a representational review?

There is an ‘open period’ in 2023. Failing a merger agreement between ALPA and ACPA, that would be the next legal opportunity for the AC pilots to change representation.

I wonder if any of the 2500 are willing to pick up the ball?
The MEC chair brings in a breath of fresh air and 2 of the 3 NEMs were hired post 2015. So the changes behind the scenes are already happening...
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