Circuits and can you glide to a suitable landing...

[PilotDAR]

So I was doing some maintenance check flying yesterday at Buttonville. The near total residential and commercial build up around that airport has me missing the open fields I remember around that airport when I first flew there in the early days - it is what it is.

What I find un-nerving is needlessly flying over these built up areas - there is no where to go if it quits over those built up areas. I tend toward close in, more high circuits whenever I can in such locales, to give me the best chance to a forced approach at least back to the airport infield, if not a runway. My last circuit of the day, things were quiet, so I was able to fly such a circuit, and pointed out to the AME accompanying me, that from downwind, I could at least get it back to the infield - messy, but at least on the airport. He pointed out to me where the 185 crashed the other week, open area thankfully yes, on the airport, close, but no.

But most of the day's flying, I was conforming to the "circuit", and therefor following other aircraft - wayyyyy out over the residential areas, 'not a hope of gliding to any safe forced landing area for what I was flying, nor even 172 ahead of me. So, I flew the highest circuit I could while following the other aircraft, to improve my odds and increase my time, in the event of an engine failure. As I turned final, a 172 ahead of me on final was actually out of sight below my nose - no problem, I knew he was there, and spacing was fine.

Would training flights consider flying circuits which are closer in to the airport, and teaching students that a smaller, closer circuit gives you a better chance of at least not forced landing onto a residential street, and maybe, with skill, actually back into the airport grounds? For decades now, I have avoided overflying solid built up areas of Toronto, just to do my best to avoid getting caught there with an engine failure, I like to have a suitable forced landing site in range for as much of my flying as possible, these really big circuits over built up areas give me the shivers! A forced landing near Buttonville is big news, huge public risk, and big clean up costs. A forced landing within the airport property might not even make the news, is very low public risk, and easy clean up.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Much like yourself I was taught in GA aircraft to fly a circuit that would allow a recovery on the airport. My early flying years where all in sailplanes so that was a must.

We use to jokingly refer to the big, wide pattern as an Air Canada circuit, a good time builder for the instructor but not much in it for the student.

[JasonE]

I find myself annoyed every time I fly circuits with other aircraft - Always big wide "city" circuits. I guess that's what you get with 5-7 planes running out of flight school for spacing. Often I practice a forced from downwind when I'm the only one around.

As much as I like the view around Toronto from above (especially at night), quite frankly it scares the crap out of me thinking about where would I land.

[Schooner69A]

I was military trained on Chipmunks and Harvards and the ability to make the runway from anywhere in the circuit was one of the tenets of training. However, some sixty years later, I find it ironic that after flying a 2,3, or 4 hour trip over the unforgiving land of NB, Que, Ont, or the inviting terrain of BC, that I would be concerned about arranging my circuit so that I can make the runway in case of engine failure.

Folks who go on the fly commercially will probably spend 95% of their flying career well away from the runway environment. I, too, get concerned when I see large circuits, but it has nothing to do with not being able to glide to the runway. Large circuits are incestuous!

PS Be the truth known, I'm not sure that accident stats would support our desire to maintain "gliding distance to airport in case of engine failure"... I don't think the RCAF had figures proving the assertion; it was just expedient to require tight circuits given the sheer volume of training aircraft in said circuit...

John

[PilotDAR]

Folks who go on the fly commercially will probably spend 95% of their flying career well away from the runway environment. I, too, get concerned when I see large circuits, but it has nothing to do with not being able to glide to the runway.

My point is more about not being lead out over the city to an area where any forced landing I manage is highly risky, and would be a big photo on the front page above the fold. If I mess it in in central New Brunswick, I pose zero risk to anyone on the surface, and would barely make page four.

What we choose to fly over is generally our responsibility. I prefer to avoid flying over built up areas as much as possible, so I prefer to not be lead over them to conform to a really large circuit...

[TrilliumFlt]

It's been over 40 years since I did my PPL so I'm not "genned up" on the latest training sylabus but isn't this exaclty what the "power off, 180" is all about

[crpilot]

Nothing prevents you from "redrawing" the circuit, so long as you maintain a position which allows you to keep traffic ahead in sight. I used to do this all the time as an instructor at Boundary Bay in Vancouver. Aircraft ahead would be a 172 flying a 747 pattern, and I'd just fly my normal circuit spacing, keeping enough room for them to safely turn base in front of me. Everyone would follow me, and lo and behold, on the next circuit, they were still flying my downwind, with good spacing! Magic!

[photofly]

Nothing prevents you from "redrawing" the circuit, so long as you maintain a position which allows you to keep traffic ahead in sight. I used to do this all the time as an instructor at Boundary Bay in Vancouver. Aircraft ahead would be a 172 flying a 747 pattern, and I'd just fly my normal circuit spacing, keeping enough room for them to safely turn base in front of me. Everyone would follow me, and lo and behold, on the next circuit, they were still flying my downwind, with good spacing! Magic!

It helps to be adept at slow flight in the downwind.

[‘Bob’]

I’m kind of curious with the fixation of gliding distances within the circuit when…. not only no matter how tight you make the circuit there will be points within it where it will be impossible to make it back to the field… but we also spend the majority of our time operating aircraft far beyond gliding distances to an airport.

If I’ve got an ab initio student who is struggling with a plane that goes twice as fast as a glider to get all of the calls and checks done and get configured and trimmed, you bet we are logging cross country time in the circuit. That was you, once. Or you were forgetting things and blowing through centreline and floating halfway down the runway under an instructor who’s pride or irrational fears demanded you keep a circuit tight.

[PilotDAR]

logging cross country time in the circuit. That was you, once.

Ah.... No, it wasn't. I learned to fly at Brampton, where "Snelgrove circuits" were very frowned upon. I'm not going to say that the circuits there were always as small as I prefer, but there was real discipline about they not being too large. If more straight and level training, or turns training, or rolling out on a feature on the ground training was needed, that was done in the training area where it belonged.

I’m kind of curious with the fixation of gliding distances within the circuit when…. not only no matter how tight you make the circuit there will be points within it where it will be impossible to make it back to the field… but we also spend the majority of our time operating aircraft far beyond gliding distances to an airport.

Sure, there are always points in the circuit from which a gliding return to the airport is unlikely to be achievable, and of course, much of the other operation probably has you out of gliding distance to a good landing site. A forced landing "away" could be necessary - "away" being not a residential street or schoolyard. My point is that around Buttonville, like a number of other urban airports, the more time and distance you fly in the circuit out of gliding distance to the airport is the more time you spend at very much higher risk of being page one news wrapped around a street lamp post on a residential street. And, less critical than that, simply annoying more residents with noise. Sadly amusing, when I was flying there last Friday, and discussing this very theme with my AME passenger I had along for the check flight, we were told of a crane at very short final to 15. What was a crane doing there? replacing a street lamp post taken out be another 185 a few weeks ago. I don't know the details, but evidently when things went bad, he could not make it to the runway, and made it onto the news that night. I kept my circuit to 15 high and close enough that I very gently closed the throttle on the downwind to base turn, and was able to glide to the runway as a normal power off approach - because, for that circuit, there was no one in front of me.

Nothing prevents you from "redrawing" the circuit, so long as you maintain a position which allows you to keep traffic ahead in sight. I used to do this all the time as an instructor at Boundary Bay in Vancouver. Aircraft ahead would be a 172 flying a 747 pattern, and I'd just fly my normal circuit spacing, keeping enough room for them to safely turn base in front of me.

I'm trying to visualize this; 172 pilot is wide and long on downwind. Airport etiquette and the rules say that I shall not cut in front of him (unless I actually am having an emergency), so how am I following him, and keeping the much closer circuit I consider optimum to avoid a possible forced landing into a residential area? If I'm faster, the problem is worsened, as I have to give even more room, or S turns behind. It was a 172 I was following while flying the 185 amphibian. Yes, I can and did fly as slowly as he did to prevent flying a yet larger circuit, but

It helps to be adept at slow flight in the downwind.

Yes, to a point. That point is either "best glide speed" or somewhere close to Vy. Flying slower than that in the downwind will begin to reduce the distance you can glide if you need to. So "slow flight" in a pure sense is a trick, but it's got a bad side effect if you have an engine failure.

So for the last few circuits in the 185 amphib at Buttonville, I've been flying at about Vy, as high as the circuit pattern and airspace will allow, and closer in. If the plane ahead takes too long to clear, I can go around. Otherwise, when I see that pilot has a good approach, and having listened to the call of "full stop" or "touch and go", I can slip in behind as needed when I see him clear the runway.

In my opinion, and evidenced by some large circuits I have followed, some pilots seem not afraid enough of where they are going to go if it quits. A residential neighboughhood is a kid of worst place outcome, which smaller circuits can minimize.

[photofly]

It helps to be adept at slow flight in the downwind.

Yes, to a point. That point is either "best glide speed" or somewhere close to Vy. Flying slower than that in the downwind will begin to reduce the distance you can glide if you need to. So "slow flight" in a pure sense is a trick, but it's got a bad side effect if you have an engine failure.

I'd rather be in slow flight mid-downwind keeping it in tight than at a faster airspeed a mile and a half abeam the tarmac, then extending that downwind for the Cessna space-shuttle I'm following.

It's also easier than reaching into the cabin of that Nasa 172 ahead of me and cuffing the pilot around the back of the head!

[crpilot]

Nothing prevents you from "redrawing" the circuit, so long as you maintain a position which allows you to keep traffic ahead in sight. I used to do this all the time as an instructor at Boundary Bay in Vancouver. Aircraft ahead would be a 172 flying a 747 pattern, and I'd just fly my normal circuit spacing, keeping enough room for them to safely turn base in front of me.

I'm trying to visualize this; 172 pilot is wide and long on downwind. Airport etiquette and the rules say that I shall not cut in front of him (unless I actually am having an emergency), so how am I following him, and keeping the much closer circuit I consider optimum to avoid a possible forced landing into a residential area? If I'm faster, the problem is worsened, as I have to give even more room, or S turns behind. It was a 172 I was following while flying the 185 amphibian.

Circumstances won't always allow this technique. I'm not cutting the guy off, just flying a parallel downwind, closer to the runway. If I'm significantly faster, it doesn't make it any better to do S turns directly behind or behind and to the side. If I know this to be the case, I can simply extend upwind, building more space between me and the "747/172". If the other aircraft is flying such a large circuit that I can effectively fly my entire circuit inside his, having taken off after him, then I do believe that his circuit truly is too large....