Mainline hiring

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truecolours
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by truecolours »

co-joe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:42 am
goingmissed wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:38 pm ...eg. complete 3 years as FO and upgrade to captain, start at step 4 captain pay).
Except upgrades are at more like 10-20 years so anyone upgrading would go at year 10 pay wouldn't they?


Out of curiosity, why isn't flow coming from Encore pilots? Why are you letting them hire off the street at all?
Upgrades are at the 9 year mark right now.

Encore did start flowing pilots in the June bid. As much as it pains me to say it - I agree with the company in regards to not being able to fill WJ classes with 100% Encore pilots. They can't lose all their experienced pilots that quickly. This is especially true now that Encore lowered the hiring minimums to 250 hours.
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mmm..bacon
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by mmm..bacon »

...So no upgrades for ~9 years; All of Swoop and Encore ahead of you in seniority; coming merger negotiations with Sunwing; probably a YYZ base to start.. and all for the princely sum of $60K a year?! What's the upside?
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

you get to fly a shiny jet !
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goingmissed
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by goingmissed »

co-joe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:42 am
goingmissed wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:38 pm ...eg. complete 3 years as FO and upgrade to captain, start at step 4 captain pay).
Except upgrades are at more like 10-20 years so anyone upgrading would go at year 10 pay wouldn't they?


Out of curiosity, why isn't flow coming from Encore pilots? Why are you letting them hire off the street at all?
The agreement is more of an agreement of convenience for all parties with lots of wiggle room for the company.
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co-joe
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by co-joe »

truecolours wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:46 am Upgrades are at the 9 year mark right now.

Encore did start flowing pilots in the June bid. As much as it pains me to say it - I agree with the company in regards to not being able to fill WJ classes with 100% Encore pilots. They can't lose all their experienced pilots that quickly. This is especially true now that Encore lowered the hiring minimums to 250 hours.
I have zero sympathy for Westjet on this. They chose to preferentially hire no time pilots at Encore, and then made a deal in bad faith to "flow", knowing full well they had no intention of honoring it. And the people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces. It highlights everything that is wrong with aviation in Canada in a nutshell.
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ads-b
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by ads-b »

I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.
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lownslow
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by lownslow »

co-joe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:04 pmThe people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces.
Think the Jazz DEC posting is related in any way?
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the-minister31
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by the-minister31 »

lownslow wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:24 am
co-joe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:04 pmThe people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces.
Think the Jazz DEC posting is related in any way?
I think Jazz just ran the numbers and is scared to run out of qualified pilots for the left seat on the next bid.
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bob99
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by bob99 »

truecolours wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:46 am
co-joe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:42 am
goingmissed wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:38 pm ...eg. complete 3 years as FO and upgrade to captain, start at step 4 captain pay).
Except upgrades are at more like 10-20 years so anyone upgrading would go at year 10 pay wouldn't they?


Out of curiosity, why isn't flow coming from Encore pilots? Why are you letting them hire off the street at all?
Upgrades are at the 9 year mark right now.

Encore did start flowing pilots in the June bid. As much as it pains me to say it - I agree with the company in regards to not being able to fill WJ classes with 100% Encore pilots. They can't lose all their experienced pilots that quickly. This is especially true now that Encore lowered the hiring minimums to 250 hours.
The company isn't doing themselves any favours. Just like pre pandemic, those Captains will leave in large numbers to AC, Transat, et al, by the quickest means possible. They will lose those Captains one way or another.
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truecolours
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by truecolours »

ads-b wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:39 pm I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.
I paid the $6.00 out of curiosity to read the claim. This will be an interesting one to see unfold.

Thinking it through though - I wonder how the PTA is any different than an airline merger where pilots might end up out of line.
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imjustlurking
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by imjustlurking »

ads-b wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:39 pm I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.
ALPAPolicy is no longer a user on here. His name, as he has proudly stated on this forum several times, is John. It is my opinion that he has the value of used toilet paper and this lawsuit is frivolous.

Feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am not a lawyer, nor am I specifically versed on his lawsuit(s).
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ads-b
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by ads-b »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:55 am [quote=ads-b post_id=<a href="tel:1194725">1194725</a> time=<a href="tel:1652585975">1652585975</a> user_id=80065]
I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.
ALPAPolicy is no longer a user on here. His name, as he has proudly stated on this forum several times, is John. It is my opinion that he has the value of used toilet paper and this lawsuit is frivolous.

Feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am not a lawyer, nor am I specifically versed on his lawsuit(s).
[/quote]


I’ve no skin in this one. But I think he makes pretty good points. How do you accrue seniority at 2 separate companies at the same time? Why is the WJ MEC more concerned about pilots not employed at WJ then pilots employed at WJ? Flow to me means ability to join any company bottom of the list ie jazz/AC.

Will be interesting.
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imjustlurking
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by imjustlurking »

ads-b wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:56 pm I’ve no skin in this one. But I think he makes pretty good points. How do you accrue seniority at 2 separate companies at the same time? Why is the WJ MEC more concerned about pilots not employed at WJ then pilots employed at WJ? Flow to me means ability to join any company bottom of the list ie jazz/AC.

Will be interesting.
John's argument many times was that Encore pilots do not deserve seniority while flying the WestJet tail and WestJet passengers, contributing to the WestJet bottom line, and working for a company fully owned by WestJet Airlines. He also argued that Sunwing pilots coming in, having never contributed to WestJet, deserve full seniority based on their date of hire at WG.

Let me be clear with my words here: John Swallow is a person who is trying to stir the shit to no benefit of his own as he is ~250 down from the top of the list. His opinions do not benefit any current WestJet, Swoop, or Encore pilot, and only have any bearing on future employees who have not yet been hired yet.

The PTA states that all pilots with a reserved seniority number will retain that seniority number and the privileges associated with it, even if the PTA is struck down. It was ratified by vote and is legally binding.
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sstaurus
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by sstaurus »

co-joe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:04 pm
truecolours wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:46 am Upgrades are at the 9 year mark right now.

Encore did start flowing pilots in the June bid. As much as it pains me to say it - I agree with the company in regards to not being able to fill WJ classes with 100% Encore pilots. They can't lose all their experienced pilots that quickly. This is especially true now that Encore lowered the hiring minimums to 250 hours.
I have zero sympathy for Westjet on this. They chose to preferentially hire no time pilots at Encore, and then made a deal in bad faith to "flow", knowing full well they had no intention of honoring it. And the people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces. It highlights everything that is wrong with aviation in Canada in a nutshell.
That flow model, when Encore started, was based on the premise that experienced pilots would continue to fall out of trees forever. That clearly isn’t the case anymore… and Encore needs to be made a good enough place to work on it’s own merit or the whole thing will fall apart. The mainline carrot is moldy and you need a telescope just to catch a glimpse of it in the distance.
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sarg
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by sarg »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:40 pm
ads-b wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:56 pm I’ve no skin in this one. But I think he makes pretty good points. How do you accrue seniority at 2 separate companies at the same time? Why is the WJ MEC more concerned about pilots not employed at WJ then pilots employed at WJ? Flow to me means ability to join any company bottom of the list ie jazz/AC.

Will be interesting.
John's argument many times was that Encore pilots do not deserve seniority while flying the WestJet tail and WestJet passengers, contributing to the WestJet bottom line, and working for a company fully owned by WestJet Airlines. He also argued that Sunwing pilots coming in, having never contributed to WestJet, deserve full seniority based on their date of hire at WG.

Let me be clear with my words here: John Swallow is a person who is trying to stir the shit to no benefit of his own as he is ~250 down from the top of the list. His opinions do not benefit any current WestJet, Swoop, or Encore pilot, and only have any bearing on future employees who have not yet been hired yet.

The PTA states that all pilots with a reserved seniority number will retain that seniority number and the privileges associated with it, even if the PTA is struck down. It was ratified by vote and is legally binding.
I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.
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imjustlurking
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by imjustlurking »

sarg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:04 pm
I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.
Since you haven't read what you're arguing against, here's an excerpt.

Image
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sarg
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by sarg »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:12 pm
sarg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:04 pm
I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.
Since you haven't read what you're arguing against, here's an excerpt.

Image
Ya,

Not only have I read the PTA, that clause is just one the numerous reasons I voted against it.

I've seen you highlight that clause before, I and many others believe that this clause will not survive the legal challenge most likely to be brought against it during a merger.

Here's the neat thing about differing opinions and the law, you argue your case in front of a judge(or arbitrator) and get a ruling, so your opinion or mine don't matter. Just because something is in a agreement doesn't mean it's legal, if the MEC didn't have the legal right to agree the granting of preferential seniority or the granting of preferential seniority is illegal then the whole thing becomes null and void.

Wither it's John or the Sunwing pilot's union I can guarantee that the PTA is going to end up in front of a judge or arbitrator when it does we will all have the clarity of the legally enforceable ruling. What I will also guarantee, is regardless of the outcome there will be approximately 450-500 pilots unhappy with the ruling.

If during the potential merger with the Sunwing pilots you're expecting the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit to expend a lot of effort protecting reserved seniority for Encore pilots at their expense, you will be disappointed.
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imjustlurking
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by imjustlurking »

sarg wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:30 am
imjustlurking wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:12 pm
sarg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:04 pm
I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.
Since you haven't read what you're arguing against, here's an excerpt.

Image
Ya,

Not only have I read the PTA, that clause is just one the numerous reasons I voted against it.

I've seen you highlight that clause before, I and many others believe that this clause will not survive the legal challenge most likely to be brought against it during a merger.

Here's the neat thing about differing opinions and the law, you argue your case in front of a judge(or arbitrator) and get a ruling, so your opinion or mine don't matter. Just because something is in a agreement doesn't mean it's legal, if the MEC didn't have the legal right to agree the granting of preferential seniority or the granting of preferential seniority is illegal then the whole thing becomes null and void.

Wither it's John or the Sunwing pilot's union I can guarantee that the PTA is going to end up in front of a judge or arbitrator when it does we will all have the clarity of the legally enforceable ruling. What I will also guarantee, is regardless of the outcome there will be approximately 450-500 pilots unhappy with the ruling.

If during the potential merger with the Sunwing pilots you're expecting the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit to expend a lot of effort protecting reserved seniority for Encore pilots at their expense, you will be disappointed.
You seem to think that this agreement was pulled out of someone's ass and then voted on. Let me remind you that WestJet and ALPA have in-house lawyers that would have reviewed the agreement before and after it was approved by the MEC and sent out to vote.

At the end of the day, all parties overwhelmingly voted in favour and any arbitrator would ask why the sudden change.

Is it because you've gotten your use out of the bump down clause and it no longer suits you?

Let me remind you: Sunwing pilots are not WestJet pilots. They have never worn a WestJet uniform or flown a WestJet tail. Encore pilots are WestJet employees and are working to further the goals of the WJAMEC on top of the goals of the WENMEC.
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fish4life
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by fish4life »

I heard a rumour that it was challenged in court before and the court challenge didn’t hold up any truth to that?
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sarg
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Re: Mainline hiring

Post by sarg »

imjustlurking wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am


You seem to think that this agreement was pulled out of someone's ass and then voted on. Let me remind you that WestJet and ALPA have in-house lawyers that would have reviewed the agreement before and after it was approved by the MEC and sent out to vote.

At the end of the day, all parties overwhelmingly voted in favour and any arbitrator would ask why the sudden change.

Is it because you've gotten your use out of the bump down clause and it no longer suits you?

Let me remind you: Sunwing pilots are not WestJet pilots. They have never worn a WestJet uniform or flown a WestJet tail. Encore pilots are WestJet employees and are working to further the goals of the WJAMEC on top of the goals of the WENMEC.
[/quote]

I think you might need to spend some time on reading comprehension. I clearly stated I voted no to the PTA both times. Although voted in by a majority the second time calling it overwhelming is a stretch.

An arbitrator will also be asking why during the second vote the voting issue was clouded by a second nonrelated issue. In case you aren't aware the second vote for WestJet pilots on the PTA had a resolution on the stock option program attached.

The current WJ MEC fired the lawyer that was involved in the PTA, any guess as to part of the reasoning why? As previously stated when this ends up being challenged a ruling will be furnished, at that point we will all have clarification. Again, just because something is written by a lawyer doesn't make it legal, refer to the dual basing issue.

You need to realize the Sunwing pilots will be WestJet pilots arguing that they should be second class pilots will be a poor way to start merger talks. Perhaps those of us that have been through mergers before both realize the complexity of the process and are mature enough to understand that the next time the shoe could be on the other foot.
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