Pilot Transfer Agreement
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Pilot Transfer Agreement
Having now gone through an event that has tested the language of the PTA, I thought this would be a good question to bring up. There is apparently a LEC motion coming up asking for a vote on the matter so thought an informal pulse check would be worthwhile.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
I wonder how all the pilots who bumped down to Encore will vote.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Or all the laid off pilots who weren’t allowed to bump because… that’s a “grey area” or not “the intention” of the pta.WaldoPepper wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:01 pm I wonder how all the pilots who bumped down to Encore will vote.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Remind me again about those pilots. Who and why weren’t they allowed to bump down?truecolours wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 2:58 pmOr all the laid off pilots who weren’t allowed to bump because… that’s a “grey area” or not “the intention” of the pta.WaldoPepper wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 12:01 pm I wonder how all the pilots who bumped down to Encore will vote.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
What possible reason could a mainline pilot have to not like the PTA? Unless you are someone who was hired in the last five years, the PTA should not mean anything to you, and if you are one of those pilots, you should remember that the PTA has clause 11.03.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
So - because the PTA has nothing to do with many of us, we shouldn't care about it? That seems like a pretty selfish statement.goingmissed wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:34 pm What possible reason could a mainline pilot have to not like the PTA? Unless you are someone who was hired in the last five years, the PTA should not mean anything to you, and if you are one of those pilots, you should remember that the PTA has clause 11.03.
I think you are jumping to conclusions by mentioning 11.03. Nothing above or in the posted question says anything about taking your reserved spot away.
Time will tell. Will see how this unfolds in the weeks ahead.
Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Believe it or not, I'm pretty neutral on this issue. For those who are in favour of cancelling the PTA, I'm curious as to your reasons and what you think cancelling it will accomplish?
I purposely am not a member of the telegram group so perhaps it's been discussed there, but I haven't heard any actual succinct reasons as to why people want the PTA to be voted and cancelled other than a few junior-ish Mainline/Swoop pilots incorrectly thinking that it'll help them move up in seniority above current Encore pilots and Encore alumni. Honestly curious.
I purposely am not a member of the telegram group so perhaps it's been discussed there, but I haven't heard any actual succinct reasons as to why people want the PTA to be voted and cancelled other than a few junior-ish Mainline/Swoop pilots incorrectly thinking that it'll help them move up in seniority above current Encore pilots and Encore alumni. Honestly curious.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Selfish? You don't expect there to be 525 angry pilots that there are people who are actively trying to screw them over for no benefit to anyone currently on property?truecolours wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 4:20 pmSo - because the PTA has nothing to do with many of us, we shouldn't care about it? That seems like a pretty selfish statement.goingmissed wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:34 pm What possible reason could a mainline pilot have to not like the PTA? Unless you are someone who was hired in the last five years, the PTA should not mean anything to you, and if you are one of those pilots, you should remember that the PTA has clause 11.03.
I think you are jumping to conclusions by mentioning 11.03. Nothing above or in the posted question says anything about taking your reserved spot away.
Time will tell. Will see how this unfolds in the weeks ahead.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
How did you go from bringing attention to 11.03 to saying 525 pilots would be screwed over? I don’t think the cancellation of the pta would affect anyone currently on property.goingmissed wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 9:09 pmSelfish? You don't expect there to be 525 angry pilots that there are people who are actively trying to screw them over for no benefit to anyone currently on property?truecolours wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 4:20 pmSo - because the PTA has nothing to do with many of us, we shouldn't care about it? That seems like a pretty selfish statement.goingmissed wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:34 pm What possible reason could a mainline pilot have to not like the PTA? Unless you are someone who was hired in the last five years, the PTA should not mean anything to you, and if you are one of those pilots, you should remember that the PTA has clause 11.03.
I think you are jumping to conclusions by mentioning 11.03. Nothing above or in the posted question says anything about taking your reserved spot away.
Time will tell. Will see how this unfolds in the weeks ahead.
My reason for going from supporter to critic. I’d expect the company to work to make the “bumping” process unattractive but never thought the pilot group who benefited tremendously from this pta (encore) would go so low as to agree to sub-par pay rates for mainline pilots coming to property (twice). I think this would have been a pretty strong DFR case actually but alpa can relax. The 90 days is up.
The language needs to be tightened. Plain and simple.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
I’ll add - I think our groups are better off working together but I don’t think the PTA is the way to do it. The PTA simply demonstrated that it’s every team for themselves when faced with a tough situation.
I think cancelling the pta might actually help bring the groups closer together. Encore might finally decide they want to work with us and pursue a certain designation/ruling from the CIRB.
I think cancelling the pta might actually help bring the groups closer together. Encore might finally decide they want to work with us and pursue a certain designation/ruling from the CIRB.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Can you explain this? Weren’t mainline pilots who bumped into Encore paid as per the existing Encore pay scale?truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:38 amHow did you go from bringing attention to 11.03 to saying 525 pilots would be screwed over? I don’t think the cancellation of the pta would affect anyone currently on property.goingmissed wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 9:09 pmSelfish? You don't expect there to be 525 angry pilots that there are people who are actively trying to screw them over for no benefit to anyone currently on property?truecolours wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 4:20 pm
So - because the PTA has nothing to do with many of us, we shouldn't care about it? That seems like a pretty selfish statement.
I think you are jumping to conclusions by mentioning 11.03. Nothing above or in the posted question says anything about taking your reserved spot away.
Time will tell. Will see how this unfolds in the weeks ahead.
My reason for going from supporter to critic. I’d expect the company to work to make the “bumping” process unattractive but never thought the pilot group who benefited tremendously from this pta (encore) would go so low as to agree to sub-par pay rates for mainline pilots coming to property (twice). I think this would have been a pretty strong DFR case actually but alpa can relax. The 90 days is up.
The language needs to be tightened. Plain and simple.
Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Thanks for outlining your reasons.
A few comments/corrections to some of your comments, though I'm not actually trying to convince you to change your mind about the PTA. I truly don't want to get into a debate about that. As you've said, cancelling the PTA now would not directly effect any current WJ/Swoop/Encore pilot. There are pros and cons to keeping it for future pilots.
However, I need to clarify the following:
A few comments/corrections to some of your comments, though I'm not actually trying to convince you to change your mind about the PTA. I truly don't want to get into a debate about that. As you've said, cancelling the PTA now would not directly effect any current WJ/Swoop/Encore pilot. There are pros and cons to keeping it for future pilots.
However, I need to clarify the following:
This is false. The Encore ALPA group has never suggested that they don't want to work with the mainline/Swoop group vis-a-vis a s.35 Application under the CLC. It's not as simple as simply having two groups agree that they want to be classified as a single employer. It is far more complicated and it is a discretionary ruling by the CIRB. It's not any particular pilot group preventing that from happening, it's the history and jurisprudence of how that section is used. In all the previous situations the chance of success of such an application was pretty much zero.Encore might finally decide they want to work with us and pursue a certain designation/ruling from the CIRB.
A DFR would have failed. The negotiations with the Company for the MOAs during COVID were done in a manner that was neither discriminatory nor arbitrary nor in bad faith. As outlined in the Comms, the questionnaires and direction given by the pilot group (including those who bumped down) clearly indicated that the MEC and Negotiation committee were mandated to reach reasonable mitigations to protect as many jobs as possible. The test for a DFR isn't whether an individual employee didn't agree with a union's decision or whether an individual employee may be worse off, it's whether the union acted in a manner that wasn't arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith. The major of the pilots (both original Encore and those displaced from WJ/Swoop) provided that mandate. And to be clear, there was a majority of both groups separately. I'm sorry if you disagreed with how the MOAs were handled. Unfortunately in such a situation not everyone will be happy.I think this would have been a pretty strong DFR case actually but alpa can relax
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Non-type rated pilots (westjet pilots) were paid a lower MMG. Though, the encore mec did finally right this issue.Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:30 amCan you explain this? Weren’t mainline pilots who bumped into Encore paid as per the existing Encore pay scale?truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:38 amHow did you go from bringing attention to 11.03 to saying 525 pilots would be screwed over? I don’t think the cancellation of the pta would affect anyone currently on property.goingmissed wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 9:09 pm
Selfish? You don't expect there to be 525 angry pilots that there are people who are actively trying to screw them over for no benefit to anyone currently on property?
My reason for going from supporter to critic. I’d expect the company to work to make the “bumping” process unattractive but never thought the pilot group who benefited tremendously from this pta (encore) would go so low as to agree to sub-par pay rates for mainline pilots coming to property (twice). I think this would have been a pretty strong DFR case actually but alpa can relax. The 90 days is up.
The language needs to be tightened. Plain and simple.
Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
I'll clarify this one as well. If you look at the language of the MOA in question, it was only for non-type rated FOs. The purpose of this clause was because the Company was required to recall a certain amount of people by a certain date. They were worried that they wouldn't be able to train them all. As I outlined on the All-Pilot call a year ago, the reasoning was that a laid off pilot would rather be back at work getting health, dental, travel benefits than being stuck on CEWs/EI for another month or two. That clause was not intended to be used for WestJet pilots who subsequently bumped down.truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:48 am
Non-type rated pilots (westjet pilots) were paid a lower MMG. Though, the encore mec did finally right this issue.
The Company unilaterally imposed applying it to the bump down Captains. We Grieved and resolved it. As also outlined on the all-pilot call, the MMG for active pilots was only 60 and 65 hours for the two months that the non-active bump down Captains were paid 55 MMG. So while 15 hours of pay over two months isn't nothing, it actually was not a huge amount of money considering the pilots literally had two months free from work. And, as you outlined, we were able to resolve the matter.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
You're blaming the pilots who were laid off, some for 24 months, for mainline pilots exercising their right to bump down to save their own skin? Of course if they bump down they are going to get paid the rate of the aircraft they are bidding into.truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:38 am My reason for going from supporter to critic. I’d expect the company to work to make the “bumping” process unattractive but never thought the pilot group who benefited tremendously from this pta (encore) would go so low as to agree to sub-par pay rates for mainline pilots coming to property (twice). I think this would have been a pretty strong DFR case actually but alpa can relax. The 90 days is up.
The language needs to be tightened. Plain and simple.
Don't blame me for your choice to kick me out. You benefit from the PTA as much as I do, but now that you have seen and used your benefit, and don't see it being useful to you again for a while, you want to use it as a bargaining chip. You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping that low.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
I am sorry this is such an emotional issue for you. But note - I haven't once said anything about using this as a bargaining chip. If you enter into an agreement or contract with someone and it turns out there are issues with it or that other parties have exploited loopholes, it would be reasonable to assume most people would want to renegotiate. Im sure encore pilots are learning how this place likes to find grey.goingmissed wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:53 amYou're blaming the pilots who were laid off, some for 24 months, for mainline pilots exercising their right to bump down to save their own skin? Of course if they bump down they are going to get paid the rate of the aircraft they are bidding into.truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:38 am My reason for going from supporter to critic. I’d expect the company to work to make the “bumping” process unattractive but never thought the pilot group who benefited tremendously from this pta (encore) would go so low as to agree to sub-par pay rates for mainline pilots coming to property (twice). I think this would have been a pretty strong DFR case actually but alpa can relax. The 90 days is up.
The language needs to be tightened. Plain and simple.
Don't blame me for your choice to kick me out. You benefit from the PTA as much as I do, but now that you have seen and used your benefit, and don't see it being useful to you again for a while, you want to use it as a bargaining chip. You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping that low.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Fact: WJAMEC is (or going to be very soon) in negotiations for their contract.truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:10 pm I am sorry this is such an emotional issue for you. But note - I haven't once said anything about using this as a bargaining chip. If you enter into an agreement or contract with someone and it turns out there are issues with it or that other parties have exploited loopholes, it would be reasonable to assume most people would want to renegotiate. Im sure encore pilots are learning how this place likes to find grey.
Fact: The PTA does not have any bearing on John Swallow's career, nor much if any affect on many of the pilots who do not like it.
I have yet to hear why there is a group of pilots who do not agree with the PTA, other than arguments on the lines of "the company exploited us" and "the company is bad."
My argument that this 'movement' is a group of WJA pilots using Encore pilots' seniority as a bargaining chip stands. The hope, as you are alluding to, is to strike down the PTA and all of it's clauses outside of section 11.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
It could be argued that a poorly written agreement that guarantees a new Encore pilot ‘flow’ to the bottom of the payscale at WJ after 8-10 years is pretty dismal in this day and age. Get rid of it and create something better. God knows Encore won’t exist for long without some kind of PTA/flow agreement.
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Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
+1Canadaflyer46 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:49 pm It could be argued that a poorly written agreement that guarantees a new Encore pilot ‘flow’ to the bottom of the payscale at WJ after 8-10 years is pretty dismal in this day and age. Get rid of it and create something better. God knows Encore won’t exist for long without some kind of PTA/flow agreement.
What does the PTA, regional pilot incentive program, and covid era bump up pay for existing wen pilots tell me? The company knows wen isn't a desirable place based on wawcon alone.
Back to the drawing board. I think we can all do better. Hell - they call you westjet pilots and send you "happy 5th anniversary" gifts once you are at wj (including wen yos) so why aren't they paying you as such?
I don't know John well and I don't agree with everything he does, but I will give him credit for digging into things the way no one else ever does. Maybe he's out to lunch on this, and maybe he isn't. I'm not a lawyer, judge, or arbitrator. What I do know is that I'm not comfortable saying he is 100% wrong because I'm not one of those previously mentioned people. We simply don't know. Weirder things have happened.goingmissed wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:39 pmFact: WJAMEC is (or going to be very soon) in negotiations for their contract.truecolours wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:10 pm I am sorry this is such an emotional issue for you. But note - I haven't once said anything about using this as a bargaining chip. If you enter into an agreement or contract with someone and it turns out there are issues with it or that other parties have exploited loopholes, it would be reasonable to assume most people would want to renegotiate. Im sure encore pilots are learning how this place likes to find grey.
Fact: The PTA does not have any bearing on John Swallow's career, nor much if any affect on many of the pilots who do not like it.
I have yet to hear why there is a group of pilots who do not agree with the PTA, other than arguments on the lines of "the company exploited us" and "the company is bad."
My argument that this 'movement' is a group of WJA pilots using Encore pilots' seniority as a bargaining chip stands. The hope, as you are alluding to, is to strike down the PTA and all of it's clauses outside of section 11.
Re: Pilot Transfer Agreement
Correct me if I'm wrong here.
WJ pilots are mad because they bumped into positions at a separate company to save their bacon during the pandemic and earn some money, maintain benefits, etc., but are angry that the WEN MEC negotiated a mitigation clause to save as many jobs as possible which included a reduced MMG like every other company out there.
I know that pissed alot of guys off because its been posted here before about how they had no right and made it not worth going there, but on that premise the WEN pilots should have a say in your contract at WJ as one day in 10 years it will affect them.
So, you would rather go through another period of tough times (incoming monkey pox invasion), and just be plainly laid off? I'm just not seeing the issue.
WJ pilots are mad because they bumped into positions at a separate company to save their bacon during the pandemic and earn some money, maintain benefits, etc., but are angry that the WEN MEC negotiated a mitigation clause to save as many jobs as possible which included a reduced MMG like every other company out there.
I know that pissed alot of guys off because its been posted here before about how they had no right and made it not worth going there, but on that premise the WEN pilots should have a say in your contract at WJ as one day in 10 years it will affect them.
So, you would rather go through another period of tough times (incoming monkey pox invasion), and just be plainly laid off? I'm just not seeing the issue.