Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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Average_Canuck
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Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Average_Canuck »

From a current employee to potential applicants, here are MY top reasons you shouldn't consider Encore:

1. Not to beat a dead horse, but flow may soon be a thing of the past. Even if the Pilot Transfer Agreement with Encore, Swoop, Mainline (and Sunwing?) may exist, you're still looking at 6 to 8 years to flow at 8 pilots per month (over 530 pilots at WEN currently) This is assuming there will be a minimim of 8 per month...and that's asking a lot, apparently.

2. If you have 1500 hours and an ATP (or in most cases IATRA with 1000) you have a lot more options now - Porter, Jazz, Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Swoop, Flair, Lynx, even mainline WJ. They ALL have better contracts than Encore - hands down. Better pay, same or better equipment, maybe even comparable schedules.

3. Encore ALPA has no teeth. All they care about is pub nights. They answer your questions like management - generic, vague and never to the point.

4. With Jazz, even if you decide AC is not for you (for some reason) a career at Jazz is not a bad option at all. Have a look at their pay structure- compare it with Encore's and you'll see why.

5. During your interview at Encore, they'll emphasize how a successful outcome of this one interview will take you all the way to a dreamliner. Don't fall for it. It's that dangling carrot at the end of the stick that grows longer and longer every year.

6. Too many scheduling issues and IROPS - granted this may be the case for every other airline currently, so take my comment with a pinch of salt.

7. You'll see the same names and their friends for training pilot nominees, pilot management positions, office positions, etc. Again, my personal opinion - sorry if you find this offensive.

8. Westjet management will never agree to years of service - meaning if you flow to mainline after howmanyever years, you start as year 1 mainline FO. The 'bridge pay' (REIP) isn't much I hear, after taxes.. correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to answer the question - What am I still doing here? Trust me when I say this - like several other Encore Pilots, I'm looking to move pronto. These problems didn't quite exist when we started here.

What are your reasons? What do you think of mine?
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ASSAM
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by ASSAM »

Average_Canuck wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:06 am From a current employee to potential applicants, here are MY top reasons you shouldn't consider Encore:

1. Not to beat a dead horse, but flow may soon be a thing of the past. Even if the Pilot Transfer Agreement with Encore, Swoop, Mainline (and Sunwing?) may exist, you're still looking at 6 to 8 years to flow at 8 pilots per month (over 530 pilots at WEN currently) This is assuming there will be a minimim of 8 per month...and that's asking a lot, apparently.

2. If you have 1500 hours and an ATP (or in most cases IATRA with 1000) you have a lot more options now - Porter, Jazz, Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Swoop, Flair, Lynx, even mainline WJ. They ALL have better contracts than Encore - hands down. Better pay, same or better equipment, maybe even comparable schedules.

3. Encore ALPA has no teeth. All they care about is pub nights. They answer your questions like management - generic, vague and never to the point.

4. With Jazz, even if you decide AC is not for you (for some reason) a career at Jazz is not a bad option at all. Have a look at their pay structure- compare it with Encore's and you'll see why.

5. During your interview at Encore, they'll emphasize how a successful outcome of this one interview will take you all the way to a dreamliner. Don't fall for it. It's that dangling carrot at the end of the stick that grows longer and longer every year.

6. Too many scheduling issues and IROPS - granted this may be the case for every other airline currently, so take my comment with a pinch of salt.

7. You'll see the same names and their friends for training pilot nominees, pilot management positions, office positions, etc. Again, my personal opinion - sorry if you find this offensive.

8. Westjet management will never agree to years of service - meaning if you flow to mainline after howmanyever years, you start as year 1 mainline FO. The 'bridge pay' (REIP) isn't much I hear, after taxes.. correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to answer the question - What am I still doing here? Trust me when I say this - like several other Encore Pilots, I'm looking to move pronto. These problems didn't quite exist when we started here.

What are your reasons? What do you think of mine?
Thanks for this information. Pretty sad hearing this. I have an interview coming up with them. I have applied to other places as well and will certainly prioritize those over Encore (unfortunately). However, would you recommend starting off with Encore then eventually move on to other operators further down the road? So start with Encore to get the 705 experience then move on. Or better to stay with current employer and apply to the other places until I get an offer with the other operators?

Thanks in advance!
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fish4life
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by fish4life »

ASSAM wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:18 pm
Average_Canuck wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:06 am From a current employee to potential applicants, here are MY top reasons you shouldn't consider Encore:

1. Not to beat a dead horse, but flow may soon be a thing of the past. Even if the Pilot Transfer Agreement with Encore, Swoop, Mainline (and Sunwing?) may exist, you're still looking at 6 to 8 years to flow at 8 pilots per month (over 530 pilots at WEN currently) This is assuming there will be a minimim of 8 per month...and that's asking a lot, apparently.

2. If you have 1500 hours and an ATP (or in most cases IATRA with 1000) you have a lot more options now - Porter, Jazz, Sunwing, Transat, Cargojet, Swoop, Flair, Lynx, even mainline WJ. They ALL have better contracts than Encore - hands down. Better pay, same or better equipment, maybe even comparable schedules.

3. Encore ALPA has no teeth. All they care about is pub nights. They answer your questions like management - generic, vague and never to the point.

4. With Jazz, even if you decide AC is not for you (for some reason) a career at Jazz is not a bad option at all. Have a look at their pay structure- compare it with Encore's and you'll see why.

5. During your interview at Encore, they'll emphasize how a successful outcome of this one interview will take you all the way to a dreamliner. Don't fall for it. It's that dangling carrot at the end of the stick that grows longer and longer every year.

6. Too many scheduling issues and IROPS - granted this may be the case for every other airline currently, so take my comment with a pinch of salt.

7. You'll see the same names and their friends for training pilot nominees, pilot management positions, office positions, etc. Again, my personal opinion - sorry if you find this offensive.

8. Westjet management will never agree to years of service - meaning if you flow to mainline after howmanyever years, you start as year 1 mainline FO. The 'bridge pay' (REIP) isn't much I hear, after taxes.. correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to answer the question - What am I still doing here? Trust me when I say this - like several other Encore Pilots, I'm looking to move pronto. These problems didn't quite exist when we started here.

What are your reasons? What do you think of mine?
Thanks for this information. Pretty sad hearing this. I have an interview coming up with them. I have applied to other places as well and will certainly prioritize those over Encore (unfortunately). However, would you recommend starting off with Encore then eventually move on to other operators further down the road? So start with Encore to get the 705 experience then move on. Or better to stay with current employer and apply to the other places until I get an offer with the other operators?

Thanks in advance!
Ever hear the phrase a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush?
Essentially just because there is other operators doesn’t mean they will hire you. Are you happy staying where you are forever? If not look into all the carriers mentioned and apply to all you may get offers for all jobs or none
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Average_Canuck
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Average_Canuck »

ASSAM wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:18 pm
Thanks for this information. Pretty sad hearing this. I have an interview coming up with them. I have applied to other places as well and will certainly prioritize those over Encore (unfortunately). However, would you recommend starting off with Encore then eventually move on to other operators further down the road? So start with Encore to get the 705 experience then move on. Or better to stay with current employer and apply to the other places until I get an offer with the other operators?

Thanks in advance!
Like fish4life mentioned, apply at Encore if you have no other choice.. but once you stay long enough to see your name go up the seniority list, it’s too late lol. It’s easier to stay in one company and build your seniority rather than jumping ships over and over and starting from the bottom every time. Good luck with your interview, btw.
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ASSAM
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by ASSAM »

Ever hear the phrase a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush?
Essentially just because there is other operators doesn’t mean they will hire you. Are you happy staying where you are forever? If not look into all the carriers mentioned and apply to all you may get offers for all jobs or none
[/quote]

Ooh certainly. I have applied to all and will be do my very best on all the options that come up. I would’ve loved to stay up in the North but no a lot of advancement opportunities (relatively smaller operators in their defence)

I was just wondering if Encore interview goes well, I could try stall it a bit (if possible obviously) prior to making a final decision perhaps. Or I can start off with them and then once I hit 2000 hrs then I can start applying to other bigger 705s and try my luck that way rather than staying and waiting for flow.

By the way, how much flying (roughly) does Encore do in a year?

Thanks for the advice guys. Sorry for too many questions.
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ASSAM
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by ASSAM »

Average_Canuck wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:17 pm
ASSAM wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:18 pm
Thanks for this information. Pretty sad hearing this. I have an interview coming up with them. I have applied to other places as well and will certainly prioritize those over Encore (unfortunately). However, would you recommend starting off with Encore then eventually move on to other operators further down the road? So start with Encore to get the 705 experience then move on. Or better to stay with current employer and apply to the other places until I get an offer with the other operators?

Thanks in advance!
Like fish4life mentioned, apply at Encore if you have no other choice.. but once you stay long enough to see your name go up the seniority list, it’s too late lol. It’s easier to stay in one company and build your seniority rather than jumping ships over and over and starting from the bottom every time. Good luck with your interview, btw.
Thanks for the wishes! Will see how it goes. I’m probably gonna ask then a few “tough” questions. Hope won’t be detrimental…lol
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Recent ALPA survey showed 80% of pilots at Encore are actively trying to leave.
I think you’re right that flow is about to stop, which will result in even more people leaving than if they’d just allowed flow to WJ to continue. The smart thing would be for them to agree to pay YOS just as they’d agreed to before Covid. Unfortunately they likely won’t agree to that again unless the airline is on the brink of collapse due to lack of crews. I’d give it 6-12 months before we’re there again. Unfortunately their preference always seems to be to pay out millions of dollars in pax compensation for canceled flights versus kicking some money the pilots way to ensure appropriate staffing.
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goingmissed
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by goingmissed »

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Do what you need to do for yourself to be happy and successful.

I for one am relatively happy at Encore, pleased with ALPA, and have no intention of jumping ship.
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ASSAM
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by ASSAM »

goingmissed wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:24 am The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Do what you need to do for yourself to be happy and successful.

I for one am relatively happy at Encore, pleased with ALPA, and have no intention of jumping ship.
Good to hear other side.

Would you be kind enough to share some of your like and dislikes (if any) at Encore.

TIA
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goingmissed
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by goingmissed »

ASSAM wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:02 am
goingmissed wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:24 am The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Do what you need to do for yourself to be happy and successful.

I for one am relatively happy at Encore, pleased with ALPA, and have no intention of jumping ship.
Good to hear other side.

Would you be kind enough to share some of your like and dislikes (if any) at Encore.

TIA
Pros:
- I can hold a schedule with no reserve on a relatively low seniority.
- I'm home and I sleep in my own bed with my wife every night
- Relatively young aircraft
- Outgoing and fun crew. There are only three pilots that I do not like to fly with and with ~550 pilots, you don't get stuck with the same person over and over again usually
- The WENMEC does their job well <- you'll see that debated a lot, so take my opinion as it is.
- No hat.

Cons:
- No YOS
- Young contract
- Jazz and AC pilots think that they're better than you
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Aspiredtofly
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Aspiredtofly »

What's the current payscale at encore? Latest one.
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goingmissed
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by goingmissed »

Aspiredtofly wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:28 am What's the current payscale at encore? Latest one.
It hasn't changed in a few years. Contract negotiations should begin next year.

Image

75MMG/900 guaranteed hours per year

~2% pay increase per year

~$3.45/hour away from base (pairing start to pairing end) per diem, increasing at 2% per year
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

goingmissed wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:26 pm
ASSAM wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:02 am
goingmissed wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:24 am The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Do what you need to do for yourself to be happy and successful.

I for one am relatively happy at Encore, pleased with ALPA, and have no intention of jumping ship.
Good to hear other side.

Would you be kind enough to share some of your like and dislikes (if any) at Encore.

TIA
Pros:
- I can hold a schedule with no reserve on a relatively low seniority.
- I'm home and I sleep in my own bed with my wife every night
- Relatively young aircraft
- Outgoing and fun crew. There are only three pilots that I do not like to fly with and with ~550 pilots, you don't get stuck with the same person over and over again usually
- The WENMEC does their job well <- you'll see that debated a lot, so take my opinion as it is.
- No hat.

Cons:
- No YOS
- Young contract
- Jazz and AC pilots think that they're better than you
Really scraping the barrel here if "no hat" and "young aircraft" are in the list. Would you mind sharing how you're home every night? Encore can and do schedule up to 18 days a month do they not? There are also very few single day pairings, unlike at mainline. Unless you're a sim/GS instructor I'm curious how you're advising people hired can ensure they'll be at home in their "own bed every night".
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goingmissed
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by goingmissed »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:30 am
goingmissed wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:26 pm
ASSAM wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:02 am

Good to hear other side.

Would you be kind enough to share some of your like and dislikes (if any) at Encore.

TIA
Pros:
- I can hold a schedule with no reserve on a relatively low seniority.
- I'm home and I sleep in my own bed with my wife every night
- Relatively young aircraft
- Outgoing and fun crew. There are only three pilots that I do not like to fly with and with ~550 pilots, you don't get stuck with the same person over and over again usually
- The WENMEC does their job well <- you'll see that debated a lot, so take my opinion as it is.
- No hat.

Cons:
- No YOS
- Young contract
- Jazz and AC pilots think that they're better than you
Really scraping the barrel here if "no hat" and "young aircraft" are in the list. Would you mind sharing how you're home every night? Encore can and do schedule up to 18 days a month do they not? There are also very few single day pairings, unlike at mainline. Unless you're a sim/GS instructor I'm curious how you're advising people hired can ensure they'll be at home in their "own bed every night".
It's quite easy. Here's my process:

First thing I do is look through the pairing list when it comes out on the eighth of every month. I search for one day pairings and look at destinations that give high credits. I then go and bid strategically to get the highest credit one days possible.

Start the bid off like this:
[1] Avoid Reserve Blocks
[2] Avoid 4 day(s) Pairings
[3] Avoid 3 day(s) Pairings
[4] Desire 1 day(s) Pairings
[5] Avoid 5 day(s) Pairings
[6] Desire 2 day(s) Pairings

From there I usually add to avoid US turns and prefer destinations that show up on high credit one days.

I haven't had a layover in three months now and I do not do training or have any status that gives me any special treatment.

For the record, I am pretty junior and I haven't been green since before COVID and my multi-year layoff.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

goingmissed wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:17 pm
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:30 am
goingmissed wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:26 pm

Pros:
- I can hold a schedule with no reserve on a relatively low seniority.
- I'm home and I sleep in my own bed with my wife every night
- Relatively young aircraft
- Outgoing and fun crew. There are only three pilots that I do not like to fly with and with ~550 pilots, you don't get stuck with the same person over and over again usually
- The WENMEC does their job well <- you'll see that debated a lot, so take my opinion as it is.
- No hat.

Cons:
- No YOS
- Young contract
- Jazz and AC pilots think that they're better than you
Really scraping the barrel here if "no hat" and "young aircraft" are in the list. Would you mind sharing how you're home every night? Encore can and do schedule up to 18 days a month do they not? There are also very few single day pairings, unlike at mainline. Unless you're a sim/GS instructor I'm curious how you're advising people hired can ensure they'll be at home in their "own bed every night".
It's quite easy. Here's my process:

First thing I do is look through the pairing list when it comes out on the eighth of every month. I search for one day pairings and look at destinations that give high credits. I then go and bid strategically to get the highest credit one days possible.

Start the bid off like this:
[1] Avoid Reserve Blocks
[2] Avoid 4 day(s) Pairings
[3] Avoid 3 day(s) Pairings
[4] Desire 1 day(s) Pairings
[5] Avoid 5 day(s) Pairings
[6] Desire 2 day(s) Pairings

From there I usually add to avoid US turns and prefer destinations that show up on high credit one days.

I haven't had a layover in three months now and I do not do training or have any status that gives me any special treatment.

For the record, I am pretty junior and I haven't been green since before COVID and my multi-year layoff.
Im glad you've found a system that works for you. When I said "very little single days" I guess I was wrong, I was informed by a buddy that there are indeed a lot of single day trips these days for YYZ pilots. Nice to have that choice in your schedule now.
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goingmissed
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by goingmissed »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:48 pm Im glad you've found a system that works for you. When I said "very little single days" I guess I was wrong, I was informed by a buddy that there are indeed a lot of single day trips these days for YYZ pilots. Nice to have that choice in your schedule now.
I want to be clear, not everybody gets what they want. I have found a way to use the bidding system to my advantage and my desires work with the way the system works.

There are many unhappy pilots here and many of them have applications in with competitors. I hope that these pilots find an employer and aircraft that give them the satisfaction that they deserve. I am lucky to have found my happy place and I really hope that changing circumstances do not affect it.
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kiaszceski
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by kiaszceski »

Aspiredtofly wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:28 am What's the current payscale at encore? Latest one.
Besides the pay, you need to look into how the credits are given.
One good comparison would be to take the average credit hours for Jazz vs Encore before the pandemic, without OT.
I think it was around 75hrs for Encore and 82.5hrs for Jazz.
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by flyingcanuck »

kiaszceski wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:24 pm
Aspiredtofly wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:28 am What's the current payscale at encore? Latest one.
Besides the pay, you need to look into how the credits are given.
One good comparison would be to take the average credit hours for Jazz vs Encore before the pandemic, without OT.
I think it was around 75hrs for Encore and 82.5hrs for Jazz.
77.5 is min for Jazz, 82.5 is just now after COVID/PRE Covid due to the increase in flying
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kiaszceski
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by kiaszceski »

flyingcanuck wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:54 pm
kiaszceski wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:24 pm
Aspiredtofly wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:28 am What's the current payscale at encore? Latest one.
Besides the pay, you need to look into how the credits are given.
One good comparison would be to take the average credit hours for Jazz vs Encore before the pandemic, without OT.
I think it was around 75hrs for Encore and 82.5hrs for Jazz.
77.5 is min for Jazz, 82.5 is just now after COVID/PRE Covid due to the increase in flying
Yeah so realistically I think it should stay around this mark because of the increase in flying and because Jazz will lose more than how many they can train.

The big difference might be the health benefits. While it shouldn't be too different for a single person, maybe having a family and starting at Jazz might be complicated, but I don't know the numbers for everything related to it.

Don't forget that Encore is part of Westjet which means they probably have a better deal on everything related to health since they're over 9000 people working there.
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Mac08
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Re: Reasons to NOT choose Encore

Post by Mac08 »

kiaszceski wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:36 pm
flyingcanuck wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:54 pm
kiaszceski wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:24 pm

Besides the pay, you need to look into how the credits are given.
One good comparison would be to take the average credit hours for Jazz vs Encore before the pandemic, without OT.
I think it was around 75hrs for Encore and 82.5hrs for Jazz.
77.5 is min for Jazz, 82.5 is just now after COVID/PRE Covid due to the increase in flying
Yeah so realistically I think it should stay around this mark because of the increase in flying and because Jazz will lose more than how many they can train.

The big difference might be the health benefits. While it shouldn't be too different for a single person, maybe having a family and starting at Jazz might be complicated, but I don't know the numbers for everything related to it.

Don't forget that Encore is part of Westjet which means they probably have a better deal on everything related to health since they're over 9000 people working there.
Probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read about benefits. 9000+ employees, must have the best health benefits in the country.

Heard through the grapevine of friends that CSA's (whatever is left) got their STD/LTD removed. Surely Jazz airport employee's never had it because they don't have over 9000 employees.

ONEX... Sorry... Westjet...as been shaving penny's left right and center, including health benefits. It's only going to get worse for you guys.
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