Unions - Here we go!

[TFE731]

Ok. I'll start by saying rather than have this turn into a free for all about how unions are good vs unions suck, I'd ask you to refrain from that upfront as I am merely trying to gather useful information, background, experiences etc about Unions in general. In the near future I may be accepting employment which will require me for the first time to be involved in a Union and I must say it is a subject which I have begun researching but realized I could know a lot more.

Having said that. I am curious about how unions get involved in large corporations, how much say does the company itself have, how does a company go about firing or dismissing someone if they feel they have to, how much influence do Unions have with matters such as salaries, how much voice do the pilots actually have with their Union? I wouldn't mind of hearing about current examples that reflect your comments for instance AC vs WJA.

So, lets hear what you have to say.

[Brewguy]

Ok. I'll start by saying rather than have this turn into a free for all about how unions are good vs unions suck,...

Yeah, sure - good luck with that!!!

I predict this will become a 5 - 6 page topic like some of those election time political ones. But it should be entertaining.

[twotter]

Your company comes under the Canadian labour code anyway.. When you go union, then there will be other factors to consider within your collective agreement, once you have one. To fire someone, they have to fit within the guidlines listed in the code.. If they do not, they are liable for compensation.. For a union to come in, it's pretty simple, just get 50% to sign a card and then vote for it.. Make sure you know the union though cause some are just dues collecting agencies..

PM me if you need more info..

[CID]

TFE731,

Your answer lies in the age of the company and the union. The obvious extreme example is Air Canada.

I can honestly say that Air Canada workers are the best paid and least productive in the industry. This is because the various unions have been in place for a loooong time. In unionized companies, your salary and benefits (employee contract) is negotiated for a set time as opposed to non-unionized companies that really are under no obligation to honour contracts.

When unions re-negotiate employment contracts they don't know the meaning of reasonable or fair. They never contemplate reducing wages or benefits no matter what kind of financial shape the company is in. They always go for more mainly because union dues are based on a percentage of your wage.

The result is that companies like Air Canada eventually end up with a work force that makes much more than the industry average.

Furthermore, as the union becomes entrenched and like minded people are hired, the work force becomes more powerful. This was demonstrated recently by Air Canada baggage handlers in Toronto.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... 50119.html

Here you have a situation where the workers were obviously doing something that in most companies is an offense that results in dismissal. The company recently emerged from bankruptcy and needed the revenue. That didn't seem to matter to the baggage handlers.

Younger companies tend to be less effected by the scourge of union related productivity issues. These companies have employment contracts that aren't yet stuffed full of silly benefits such as having your birthday off or mandatory sick leave.

Rule of thumb,

Old Large Company with Union = Low productivity, high wages
New Large Company with Union = Moderate productivity, moderate wages
New Large Company without Union = High productivity, low wages

As far as job satisfaction, I find that its pretty much even across the board. The laziest seem to gravitate to the old large unionized companies and are happy there because they make tons of money for doing nothing.

The more motivated people feel much more satisfied making a moderate wage for doing a honest day's work.

You get the picture.

[Dust Devil]

TFE731,

Your answer lies in the age of the company and the union. The obvious extreme example is Air Canada.

I can honestly say that Air Canada workers are the best paid and least productive in the industry. This is because the various unions have been in place for a loooong time. In unionized companies, your salary and benefits (employee contract) is negotiated for a set time as opposed to non-unionized companies that really are under no obligation to honour contracts.

When unions re-negotiate employment contracts they don't know the meaning of reasonable or fair. They never contemplate reducing wages or benefits no matter what kind of financial shape the company is in. They always go for more mainly because union dues are based on a percentage of your wage.

The result is that companies like Air Canada eventually end up with a work force that makes much more than the industry average.

Furthermore, as the union becomes entrenched and like minded people are hired, the work force becomes more powerful. This was demonstrated recently by Air Canada baggage handlers in Toronto.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... 50119.html

Here you have a situation where the workers were obviously doing something that in most companies is an offense that results in dismissal. The company recently emerged from bankruptcy and needed the revenue. That didn't seem to matter to the baggage handlers.

Younger companies tend to be less effected by the scourge of union related productivity issues. These companies have employment contracts that aren't yet stuffed full of silly benefits such as having your birthday off or mandatory sick leave.

Rule of thumb,

Old Large Company with Union = Low productivity, high wages
New Large Company with Union = Moderate productivity, moderate wages
New Large Company without Union = High productivity, low wages

As far as job satisfaction, I find that its pretty much even across the board. The laziest seem to gravitate to the old large unionized companies and are happy there because they make tons of money for doing nothing.

The more motivated people feel much more satisfied making a moderate wage for doing a honest day's work.

You get the picture.

Well said CID. Pretty hard to disagree with that.

[Brewguy]

as opposed to non-unionized companies that really are under no obligation to honour contracts.

Oh, I'd have to disagree there. I don't want to get too far into the whole union / non-union thing here... but in both cases the employer is bound to the rule of law. Unionized employees are protected by their collective agreement; Non-union employees are covered by both their individual employment agreements and by provincial (or federal) labour laws.

As an interesting note, being a member of a union can take away some of your rights under the labour laws.
In an article from Monster.ca:

Q&A - Let go shortly before retirement?

Good Morning, Monster:

I am currently employed at a large company, which has a union. Myself and over 100 people have been given our two month notice of termination of our services. I am a 33 year employee of the company. I am currently 2 years away from my full pension. Last year I could have retired early, but with a greatly reduced pension. I am wondering what are my rights? Can it be expected that I be bridged for 2 years till my legal retirement in 2007 and expect my full pension.

I would appreciate any information that you can provide me in this.

Regards
United We Fall
_________________________________

Hi United,

Surprisingly for many, if you were not in a union, there is little question but that your pension would be bridged for most or all of the two years. In addition, you would receive severance for the same period. However, unionized employees lose the right to sue for wrongful dismissal. All they have are the rights provided in the collective agreement, which, in most cases, is very little. Most collective agreements provide very little severance beyond the minimum statutory entitlement.

Any rights you have will be found in the collective agreement and, if they are not honoured, you will have to, at least initially, grieve through your union.

Best of luck,
Howard Levitt

For those of you not familiar with these articles, Monster.ca has an "Employment Law" section that is mainly comprised of Q&A, with the answers being written by lawyers from a large Toronto law firm that specializes in employment/labour law.

...Can make for an interesting read.

[Dust Devil]

I'm sure if people we're more educated about unions they wouldn't want to be in them.

Same as being educated about being a damn dirty Liberal

[CID]

Oh, I'd have to disagree there. I don't want to get too far into the whole union / non-union thing here... but in both cases the employer is bound to the rule of law.

Whoops. Sorry guys. Let me clarify. I was talking about the "set time" aspect of the negotiation. In a non-union shop, an employee contract is certainly legally binding, but once the term has expired, either party is under no obligation to continue working with each other.

If you work in a union shop, once the contract is expired, there are lock-out/strike options typically because the union works re-negotiation into the agreement.

In non-union shops you could conceivably work for decades with no employment agreement. In that case, only the labour laws protect you.

[Scuba_Steve]

Having been unionized at one point, I will say this. They seem to protect the poeple who should not be protected (ie: lazy/incompetent workers). And inspire poeple to do less....

That being said I did seek assistance from the union once when having difficulties in my workplace. And they were helpfull.

I think Unions can be good when utilized properly, but they hardly ever are.

Cheers

[TFE731]

Great information thus far everyone. Definitely some interesting points to be noted. What about the choice? Do employees seeking employment with a major company that employs a union have a choice as to whether or not they want to be involved with the union. Let's take AC for example. Must all pilot hires bind themselves to the union

[jay-f]

Do employees seeking employment with a major company that employs a union have a choice as to whether or not they want to be involved with the union. Let's take AC for example. Must all pilot hires bind themselves to the union

yes ... when union is concerned every are part of it or theres no union.this doesnt mean that you have to be involve in negociation or be a productive part of the union.

As for all this union talk im disapointed that everybody here just point out the negative part of a union. Its the union duty to protect its members the lazy one and the honest one. What if you have an issue??? If the boss doesnt like, you youre out of luck. You either live with it or try to fight it alone in front of the court. Its too bad cause whenever we hear about union its cause theres a strike or a lockout. The only company a union is gonna kill is a company that survives by offering substandard working condition.

While everybody is outrage by sonic and all the others, you guys think that demanding more will automaticly result in the cie going bankrupt.

anyway, the pilots are always the first one making concession cause we know we cant go to work anywhere like a secretary or a janitor.

I agree that unions are not for every company.

[Dust Devil]

we cant go to work anywhere like a secretary or a janitor.

Why can't you be a janitor? No one says you have to be a pilot. and no one says you have to work for a specific company. If your pissed off and you can't get results then quit. What's wrong with that. Personally I've done it a number of times in my life and never had a problem with it.

[TFE731]

So if I understand jay-f's reponse correctly, every pilot with AC must be associated with the union? There is no choice in this situation?

[Chantal]

About Unions, I worked in a bank where there are no unions and let me tell you I was ripped off so bad, I still get mad when I think about it. Luckily I didn't waste too much time there, only 4 years
Banks under pay their staff, terribly. Staff are given SO MUCH work to do and they don't get paid for it, like me. I was a CSR and I used to service the bank machines every week, and everyday by removing the deposits. This was a big, important job and I didn't get paid for it. And I know other bankers had same experience. And what about when the bank closes a branch or an office, which has been operating for 20 years and the employees have no job security. I think this would not happen if there were Unions, maybe you can learn from their experience.

[Dust Devil]

About Unions, I worked in a bank where there are no unions and let me tell you I was ripped off so bad, I still get mad when I think about it. Luckily I didn't waste too much time there, only 4 years
Banks under pay their staff, terribly. Staff are given SO MUCH work to do and they don't get paid for it, like me. I was a CSR and I used to service the bank machines every week, and everyday by removing the deposits. This was a big, important job and I didn't get paid for it. And I know other bankers had same experience. And what about when the bank closes a branch or an office, which has been operating for 20 years and the employees have no job security. I think this would not happen if there were Unions, maybe you can learn from their experience.

People forget that these companies don't belong to the employees. They belong to the investors. That makes it the investors property. No one should be able to tell someone what to do with what belongs to them. If you want to call the shots buy shares otherwise go work somewhere else.

If I own a company for 20 years and decide I want to shut it down why should I not be able to do that? Do you suggest that a bank branch should be forced into keeping it open? Besides a union has little power anyway of stopping the complete closure of a buisness.

Also you talk of doing a bunch of work for no pay. Who's fault is that? I'd say it's your own fault. Same as these guys who trash on SB but it's their own damn fault they made the decision to work for free.

I can't belive the number of grown adults in this world that still need a babysitter to look after them.

[Walker]

I will refrain from ranting and get right to something you should be VERY prepared for…
Now Im going out on a limb here and assuming this is a final career move your making; IE AC etc….. IF you DO accept it; I would be VERY hesitant to put ANY faith in ANY sort of a company provided pension… With the current and predicted state of global economics most of the heavily unionized industries in North America will have either gone POOF or cut their legacy costs loose within the next 10-20. Like I said above Im not going to rant on a unions effect on contemporary economics; just be warned; plan your OWN retirement do NOT put any faith in CPP OR your COs pension plans… Also id have a back door job on the burner; government handouts (Read fuel tax exemption etc…) will be on their way out within 20; and only those companies that can quickly adapt to the changing market structure stand ANY chance of survival; and prosperity….

[cyyz]

there are no unions and let me tell you I was ripped off so bad, Banks under pay their staff, terribly. Staff are given SO MUCH work to do
and they don't get paid for it, like me.

I was a CSR and I used to service the bank machines every week, and everyday by removing the deposits. This was a big, important job and I didn't get paid for it.

And I know other bankers had same experience. And what about when the bank closes a branch or an office, which has been operating for 20 years and the employees have no job security. I think this would not happen if there were Unions, maybe you can learn from their experience.

If I own a company for 20 years and decide I want to shut it down why should I not be able to do that?

Besides a union has little power anyway of stopping the complete closure of a buisness.

Also you talk of doing a bunch of work for no pay. Who's fault is that? I'd say it's your own fault. .

Banks DO have Unions, BMO has a branch in BC that they spend $10,000 to send a negotiator/arbitrator(whatever) when an employee has a problem because the union won't let the employee talk to the manager and "fix the problem." They're paid identical wages to their counterparts, and the bank just wastes money on bs, and their dues go towards bs...

I agree with DD, how was taking the cash out of the machine not your job and how were you not paid for it?? Branch in TO opened at 9 and staff were in at 8 and were paid from 8 and someone had to pull the deposits from the machine, were you paid and you just wanted to stand around before the doors opened???

Secondly, how do bankers have "so much to do????" didn't you know what you were applying for? Secondly, when I go to most branches I'd rather just go to the ATM, line ups for 30+ minutes at peak times, rude, slow and useless staffers at the counter, and your post reflects that..

And, if a Branch closes the bank/company WILL TRY to accommodate staff with placement, they are not all fired, it costs companies MILLIONS of dollars to lay people off, sure you'll be stuck driving to a different town, but guess what, if you won't like the drive YOU will quit, and when you quit the banks/companies will save money, that's why people are given the option to quit or get terminated, they don't want to fire/lay you.

Lastly, if you were in a Union, again, if plant A closes and you have the most seniority you're being moved to plant B, but again, you're stuck with the move...

Rule of thumb,

Old Large Company with Union = Low productivity, high wages
New Large Company with Union = Moderate productivity, moderate wages
New Large Company without Union = High productivity, low wages

As far as job satisfaction, I find that its pretty much even across the board. The laziest seem to gravitate to the old large unionized companies and are happy there because they make tons of money for doing nothing.

CIDs post is nearly on the money... I'd like to add the foresaken combination GOV'T and Unions..

That is the plateau of Unions, low productivity, ultra pay, ultra benefits, ultra security....

and Jay-F, may or may not be correct about the union opt out program, I've worked with 2 people who opted out of the union, they showed me their cheques/pay stubs, and no union dues were ever paid, as for the process, I'm assuming it was a long and lengthy process, and you probably wouldn't want to be the only guy on the line at a place like GM or Air Canada who wasn't a member, because your "job security" would be gone, "bob did this wrong" and no one to cover your ass....

[Nightshiftzombie]

Wow. I'm a little surprised that every one here seems to be so down on Unions. They are a great tool. If a union can allow me to keep a job without busting my hump great! If a union can get me more money great! Capitalism is based on the idea of greed, (get as much as you can for as little as you can give) I'm amazed at how many saps are willing to short themselves "For the good of the company." Do you think the shareholders are going to reward you for your fantastic productivity? No they are going to reward the CEO. If I don't have any financial interest in my company I don't care if it makes money, I don't care if it goes broke, I will wring them for every cent I can get.

[CID]

I'm amazed at how many saps are willing to short themselves "For the good of the company."

With all due respect "Nightshiftzombie", I think we've found one of those "lazy" guys who hide behind the union while the company sinks into bankruptcy.

If it weren't for us "saps" pulling the weight of people with attitudes like yours, productivity and progress would come to a grinding halt. We'd still be riding horses and killing our dinner with a stick.

[Lommer]

No question about it, working for a company with good management that cares about its employees is far superior to working with any union. Unions will always add politics, bullshit, and silly games into the working environment that are not helpful to anyone. However, there are some companies that are so bad and so determined to screw their employees that a union is worth ten times that price. The trick is all the companies in between. Some companies have unions they don't deserve, and some deserved them when they got them but have since got to a place where the union is only damaging. From your POV however, the only thing that matters at this point is how the union affects your working experience.

So how does working in a union shop affect you as an employee? Its not a completely different ballgame so there's only a few things to pick up on. My advice? Play ball with your shop stewards, and don't ever piss off the union guys. Keep your head up and listen to all the politics and everything going on, but try to keep yourself out of it as much as possible. Treat your bosses with respect even if noone else does, and they'll like you for it. And periodically check on yourself to see (a) how much union bullshit you're actually starting to believe and (b) where you stand with the union and with management (don't let youself be seen as completely aligned with either one of them unless you're willing to put up with a lot of BS).

Are unions good? sometimes.
Are unions bad? sometimes.
Will working in a union make your life easier? Probably, but don't let it go to your head.

[gottagetarealjob]

Wow. I'm a little surprised that every one here seems to be so down on Unions. They are a great tool. If a union can allow me to keep a job without busting my hump great! If a union can get me more money great! Capitalism is based on the idea of greed, (get as much as you can for as little as you can give) I'm amazed at how many saps are willing to short themselves "For the good of the company." Do you think the shareholders are going to reward you for your fantastic productivity? No they are going to reward the CEO. If I don't have any financial interest in my company I don't care if it makes money, I don't care if it goes broke, I will wring them for every cent I can get.

But eventually, if the company is not making money, jobs will be lost, union or not. Just ask mill workers on Vancouver island, former employees of C3, Jetsgo, etc. Don't forget IF the union can get more money. Cathay FAs have put forward 2 resolutions to their union, CUPE, and neither on was accepted at the national convention. There will always be a challenge, either the Union won't recognize you or the company doesn't - your choice! At least you can speak directly to your company...
Unions are very good in industries where the free market does not dictate how well you do, example, civil servants. Public school teachers need protection, firefighters need protection, nurses need protection. Funny thing - private teachers and nurses do a lot better than civil ones, and are not represented by unions... something to consider.

[CLguy]

Well I have worked both in and out of unionized companies and I will take the unionized operation anyday. Sure a union isn't the end all and yes there are times when you get just a frustrated with the union as you do with management. Yes the union tends to pull along the slackies but it also elliminates the ass kissers from jumping ahead and it elliminates the working for free.

A collective agreement is a contract between management and the workers. It is both of their collective agreements. In it is not only how you will be treated and what you are entitled to but also what is expected of you as far as work schedules, conduct etc. There is also a pay scale for each employee so no one can undercut the next guy just to jump the queue.

[Chantal]

cyyz, DD What I mean is:

Personal Bankers now have to do everything like mortgages, investments, personal accounts, credit accounts and they have quotas to meet but who knows what else they have to do, maybe go travelling or training new staff.
Servicing a bank machine involves a number of tasks: and these are not in work descriptions for a CSR but so they are still tasks which I think the banks are contracting out nowadays. Formerly, in the nineties, this is what we did and I'm saying they are definitely Underpaid by the bank and not that they shouldn't have to do the job.

First, You have to maintain a treasury by being a custodian, and have to count lots of money, and keep sufficient amounts and you have to order the cash as well.
Then, you have to load up the machine and remove the leftover cash, which you also have to count and balance to the report. Also, the deposits are opened everyday, and verified and get added to your own personal teller/float. There are variances you have to try and figure out, by checking GLs, and calculating transactions, yada, yada yada.
Then there were the dispense faults that you had to go remove from the machine, printer problems, reseting and customer discrepancies.

cyyz, BMO's union is the first I heard of one, are you sure it is a union? I've never heard of a union being able to prevent employee and management interaction. Also, I guess you're saying the purpose of the union doing the sole mediating between ee and mgmt, is so that the Bank can pay for the mediating services or what? hmmm.
I agree that is bs and I'm totally not surprised they would waste their money on bs

[Nightshiftzombie]

With all due respect "Nightshiftzombie", I think we've found one of those "lazy" guys who hide behind the union while the company sinks into bankruptcy.

If it weren't for us "saps" pulling the weight of people with attitudes like yours, productivity and progress would come to a grinding halt. We'd still be riding horses and killing our dinner with a stick.

Hey if you want to work yourself into the grave just to make some "Business Criminal" more money, go for it. Working harder has nothing to do with progress. Progress is about doing less, getting more.

[CID]

Working harder has nothing to do with progress. Progress is about doing less, getting more.

You must own a very strange dictionary Nightshiftzombie.

prog·ress P Pronunciation Key (prgrs, -rs, prgrs)
n.
1. Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
2. Development or growth: students who show progress.
3. Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress. See Synonyms at development.

Now here is what you're talking about:

stag·nant P Pronunciation Key (stgnnt)
adj.
1. Not moving or flowing; motionless.
2. Foul or stale from standing: stagnant ponds.
3. Showing little or no sign of activity or advancement; not developing or progressing; inactive: a stagnant economy.
Lacking vitality or briskness; sluggish or dull: a stagnant mind.