So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

[RegionalPilot]

Congratulations to everyone who got awarded what they wanted.

Now, the next big topic to be discussed is Direct Entry Captains. How do you think the company will fill the ~100 positions currently available? Will they hire a direct entry captain and bypass pay everyone that has an effective date above?

ALPA and management has a lot of talking to do in the near term.

[flyingcanuck]

I dont see how they could train "DEC" ahead of those already here.. but we seem to like pumping out LOUs so who knows.

[rudder]

Come one come all.

Plenty of vacancies.

Cannot wait to see how this turns out.

[the-minister31]

Congratulations to everyone who got awarded what they wanted.

Now, the next big topic to be discussed is Direct Entry Captains. How do you think the company will fill the ~100 positions currently available? Will they hire a direct entry captain and bypass pay everyone that has an effective date above?

ALPA and management has a lot of talking to do in the near term.

I figure that before training DEC out of seniority they will have to bring everybody back on the line... there's still a few DSCs in the bidpacks.

Then they'll have to bypass everybody that got awarded DEC. I don't see that happening since they refuse to consider 2x OT.

What I could see happening is people on DSC and DEC getting the right seat while waiting for their training month, but I don't know if they can handle that much training...

Very, very interesting. Can't wait to see how it's gonna play out!

[Droho774]

The company would rather cancel flights then pay double time. I do not think another lou will be approved for out of senority training without double time

[Dronepiper]

I am confused. How does bypass pay work?

Shouldn’t you only be awarded a captain position if you meet the experience requirements? If there are no FO’s who can upgrade, then why would hiring a DEC require bypass pay?

[lidi]

So how many pilots is Jazz short on? Are they still looking for FOs and I’m guessing the 1000 hr mark for FOs is still on?

Will this so called shortage go into 2023 or 2024?

Where are they going to find direct entry captains?

[the-minister31]

I am confused. How does bypass pay work?

Shouldn’t you only be awarded a captain position if you meet the experience requirements? If there are no FO’s who can upgrade, then why would hiring a DEC require bypass pay?

Bypass pay means if someone below you on the seniority list gets upgrade training before you (out-of-seniority training), you get captain pay.

So if they hire DEC and train them as captains right away, everybody on property who is awaiting CA training would get bypass pay.

[flyingcanuck]

So how many pilots is Jazz short on? Are they still looking for FOs and I’m guessing the 1000 hr mark for FOs is still on?

Will this so called shortage go into 2023 or 2024?

Where are they going to find direct entry captains?

Short about 400, ~150 CA spots. They'll prob hire people who can upgrade for now but I think they will have a problem finding it.

[Loon-A-Tic]

The larger concern for any DEC will be quality of work life. Yes they will be a Captain, yes being paid the associated wage. However with a long list of FO waiting to qualify every time one move to thee left seat the DEC will be going down the rungs of the ladder of monthly schedule bidding. They will most likely be on a reserve block for a lengthy period of time. I'm betting it cold be measured in years not months. I strongly recommend they ask around about what that would mean for their planning, home life, commuting etc.

[jpilot77]

The larger concern for any DEC will be quality of work life. Yes they will be a Captain, yes being paid the associated wage. However with a long list of FO waiting to qualify every time one move to thee left seat the DEC will be going down the rungs of the ladder of monthly schedule bidding. They will most likely be on a reserve block for a lengthy period of time. I'm betting it cold be measured in years not months. I strongly recommend they ask around about what that would mean for their planning, home life, commuting etc.

Except that the majority of the FO’s above them and themselves as well are all trying to get to AC, so huge mouvement coming. Might be dead last on the list now but in six months be no where near the bottom.

[rudder]

I am confused. How does bypass pay work?

Shouldn’t you only be awarded a captain position if you meet the experience requirements? If there are no FO’s who can upgrade, then why would hiring a DEC require bypass pay?

Bypass pay means if someone below you on the seniority list gets upgrade training before you (out-of-seniority training), you get captain pay.

So if they hire DEC and train them as captains right away, everybody on property who is awaiting CA training would get bypass pay.

There is not a ‘pure’ bypass system. The company cannot train in an arbitrary order. Training order is covered in the CBA (Vacancies in seniority. Reductions in reverse order of seniority). The only acknowledgement in the CBA of bypass pay is for a line check out of seniority. Big difference.

Company had broader bypass ability within several of the COVID LOU’s. They are all expired now. I am guessing they were looking for more relief associated with implementing the bid award. Didn’t want to pay for it. Didn’t get it. CBA applies.

[Transition9er2]

The larger concern for any DEC will be quality of work life. Yes they will be a Captain, yes being paid the associated wage. However with a long list of FO waiting to qualify every time one move to thee left seat the DEC will be going down the rungs of the ladder of monthly schedule bidding. They will most likely be on a reserve block for a lengthy period of time. I'm betting it cold be measured in years not months. I strongly recommend they ask around about what that would mean for their planning, home life, commuting etc.

A different way of looking at this is, upgrades at Jazz could likely be mainly supplied by new hires. The pilot list is showing an inability to fill these upgrade… therefore, as a new hire DEC, there’s a real chance that (of the 100+ open Capt seats) they’ll be filled with other new hires and as a result providing fairly decent seniority.

I foresee the majority of those open captn spots being filled by OTS vs. jazz FO’s over the next 12-24 months. Not all, but most. Don’t forget, every OTS DEC takes away an opportunity for an FO to “swoop in” above at a later date. So theoretically, if the company fills the Captn need before next bid, anyone on property meeting the mins to upgrade will be stuck as an FO due to lack of available upgrade spots.

To say things are a mess is a complete understatement.

Hope the bid treats everyone well!

[rudder]

So how many pilots is Jazz short on? Are they still looking for FOs and I’m guessing the 1000 hr mark for FOs is still on?

Will this so called shortage go into 2023 or 2024?

Where are they going to find direct entry captains?

Short about 400, ~150 CA spots. They'll prob hire people who can upgrade for now but I think they will have a problem finding it.

The published result can be misleading. 1683 positions, but inclusive of the 500+ Jazz pilots that will leave for AC between September 2022 and August 2023.

Vacancies are all for known attrition (AC flow). What about unknown attrition?

The award looks out 12 months. This is a June 2023 plan. It is within the realm of possibilities that either the Jazz fleet or flying could contract below plan. If Jazz cannot cover planned flying, then AC will simply take back routes.

Jazz min fleet guarantee is 105. Current fleet 114. Forecast fleet for 2023 is 111. There is room to drop 6 fins.

Bottom line is there are several carriers in need of pilots that are still living in some alternative universe where there is a surplus of applicants. They think that compensation is not an issue. They think that base pay includes overtime flying. And they think that overtime premiums for peak periods should be held to the bare minimum.

Time to look in the mirror and stop pointing fingers. Or just let it play out and see what happens.

[the-minister31]

I am confused. How does bypass pay work?

Shouldn’t you only be awarded a captain position if you meet the experience requirements? If there are no FO’s who can upgrade, then why would hiring a DEC require bypass pay?

Bypass pay means if someone below you on the seniority list gets upgrade training before you (out-of-seniority training), you get captain pay.

So if they hire DEC and train them as captains right away, everybody on property who is awaiting CA training would get bypass pay.

There is not a ‘pure’ bypass system. The company cannot train in an arbitrary order. Training order is covered in the CBA (Vacancies in seniority. Reductions in reverse order of seniority). The only acknowledgement in the CBA of bypass pay is for a line check out of seniority. Big difference.

Company had broader bypass ability within several of the COVID LOU’s. They are all expired now. I am guessing they were looking for more relief associated with implementing the bid award. Didn’t want to pay for it. Didn’t get it. CBA applies.

Ohhhhhhh I misinterpreted it then. Thanks for pointing it out.

I figured that's what the company wanted relief for. I would really be curious to know what they offered, especially since they did not agree on topics such as 2x OT.

[rudder]

Bypass pay means if someone below you on the seniority list gets upgrade training before you (out-of-seniority training), you get captain pay.

So if they hire DEC and train them as captains right away, everybody on property who is awaiting CA training would get bypass pay.

There is not a ‘pure’ bypass system. The company cannot train in an arbitrary order. Training order is covered in the CBA (Vacancies in seniority. Reductions in reverse order of seniority). The only acknowledgement in the CBA of bypass pay is for a line check out of seniority. Big difference.

Company had broader bypass ability within several of the COVID LOU’s. They are all expired now. I am guessing they were looking for more relief associated with implementing the bid award. Didn’t want to pay for it. Didn’t get it. CBA applies.

Ohhhhhhh I misinterpreted it then. Thanks for pointing it out.

I figured that's what the company wanted relief for. I would really be curious to know what they offered, especially since they did not agree on topics such as 2x OT.

I think the COVID era was like crack. Get whatever you want. All the leverage was on one side.

Well, those days are over. It is always tough to get off the crack.

In Jazz’s case, they need to figure out how to manage the next 12 months, the next 2 years, and then the next 10 years in CPA world. Probably a good idea to start looking for more permanent solutions and stop with the bandaids. Crisis management is not an effective management style, particularly if the crisis was predictable.

[lidi]

So how many pilots is Jazz short on? Are they still looking for FOs and I’m guessing the 1000 hr mark for FOs is still on?

Will this so called shortage go into 2023 or 2024?

Where are they going to find direct entry captains?

Short about 400, ~150 CA spots. They'll prob hire people who can upgrade for now but I think they will have a problem finding it.

Thank you for the info much appreciated, should I throw in my resume I’m short of 700 hours with over 100 pic on twins ?

[Inverted2]

What is starting pay these days? Something in the $85/hr range. I don’t think that’s going to cut it for attracting direct entry captains. Maybe a few but not the volumes needed in this bid.

[confuzed]

Maybe most Canadian airlines will just follow suit to what Sunwing is doing and start making a case to bring in foreign pilots since there are no qualified applicants available. Wouldn't that also be interesting indeed.......

[RoAF-Mig21]

So how many pilots is Jazz short on? Are they still looking for FOs and I’m guessing the 1000 hr mark for FOs is still on?

Will this so called shortage go into 2023 or 2024?

Where are they going to find direct entry captains?

Short about 400, ~150 CA spots. They'll prob hire people who can upgrade for now but I think they will have a problem finding it.

Thank you for the info much appreciated, should I throw in my resume I’m short of 700 hours with over 100 pic on twins ?

You never know... 700 hrs was not normally something Jazz would hire with (unless you come through the Seneca / other college program), but things are going to be very different with our industry, there is a chance you'll get hired, unless those 700 hrs are all single engine stuff (instructing). I don't see that as being very marketable for this job.