Rejecting a Job offer

[theflyingstickman]

Has anyone ever turned down a job offer from AC and later been offered a position with them again down the road? Or is telling them no once almost like telling them no forever?

[flyingfool]

What??

Turn down 4 years of flat pay while taking the chance of being tossed at any given moment?

Walk away from the largest Canadian pilot union with its rich history of representation with "experienced adults" that negotiated pay rates less than Flight Attendants & ULCCs?

What's wrong with you??

[tailgunner]

Yes.
I flew with an FO in 2019 who turned down their initial offer of employment in 2013. They said that they had what they thought were good reasons at the time. It was the poorest decision that they could have made they now admitted. Said that they regretted it every time they looked at an A320 and realized that by coming when they were initially called, they would be a Captain on it with relatively OK seniority….
Have a friend who turned down AC to stay at Jazz in 2004 or early 2005. Said they regretted it until the day they flowed over from Jazz to AC early in the process.
You have to make your own mind up, but do not let others sway you from making the correct long term decision.
Good luck.

[JHR]

Was called to interview in 2008 and 2018. Both times I couldn't take the paycut and told them so. Don't regret it at all. Airline flying is not for me.

[rooster]

Was called to interview in 2008 and 2018. Both times I couldn't take the paycut and told them so. Don't regret it at all. Airline flying is not for me.

So you applied knowing you couldn't take the paycut, then you did it again 10 years for the same reason? What am I missing here? AC's salary isn't exactly a big corporate secret.

[DanWEC]

Personally, I'd really like to see tangible examples of 5-7 year FO pay NB or WB, and 10 year left seat actual gross or actual take-home. There's so much misinformation. Not looking for best case possibilities or outliers but rather conservative, average income. Yes, the payscale matrixes are there but there's a lot of lateral ambiguity. PM if you'd like, thanks.

[JHR]

Was called to interview in 2008 and 2018. Both times I couldn't take the paycut and told them so. Don't regret it at all. Airline flying is not for me.

So you applied knowing you couldn't take the paycut, then you did it again 10 years for the same reason? What am I missing here? AC's salary isn't exactly a big corporate secret.

Applied, got a call, re-evaluated my financial position, couldn't bring myself to take the cut. Also realized I wouldn't enjoy the type of flying. Is that easier to understand?

[rudder]

Personally, I'd really like to see tangible examples of 5-7 year FO pay NB or WB, and 10 year left seat actual gross or actual take-home. There's so much misinformation. Not looking for best case possibilities or outliers but rather conservative, average income. Yes, the payscale matrixes are there but there's a lot of lateral ambiguity. PM if you'd like, thanks.

AC pilots do very well on take home pay ratio due benefit premiums employer paid plus deductions for pension contributions and union dues.

I will leave it to individuals to provide examples but the hourly rates are self explanatory. You have to calculate day/night and add overrides if applicable which can make a big difference on the WB side.

I had a buddy who was a WB FO did $290k on T4. Tax bill around $115k. 6% pension contribution (tax deductible). New hires have higher pension contribution rates. 1% union dues (tax deductible. Zero benefit premiums. Excluding per diems I am sure his take home pay was $160-$165k. So that would be almost $13k plus per diems for monthly cash flow. Year 5-7 NB FO would be closer to $150k gross and probably around $95-100k net.

[DanWEC]

Thanks for the info Rudder.

If anyone's following this, Transat's current payscale is pretty similar to AC's 320. FO is over 100k at year 4 and tops out at 160k. Capt is 194k to 260k Year 1-10. Much lower for pension however, as well as much lower annual vacation allotment.

AC's WB scale is quite a bit higher. No FO would ever come remotely near the #'s you're talking about.

[Inverted2]

I had an interview offer in 2019 but I wussed out and declined. I made the decision to stay at Jazz. Had I gone (and passed the interview? ) I would have been laid off for close to 2 years or stuck on reserve at the very best. Sure I will never make the 200k/year but I'm happy here and have my seniority and a relative say in my schedule choices. Plus I have no desire to do overseas flying so make your decision and don't second guess yourself or ask for advice on here.

[rudder]

AC's WB scale is quite a bit higher. No FO would ever come remotely near the #'s you're talking about.

Admittedly, that included some O/T flying but nothing crazy. There are B777 FO’s making even more, particularly at 2x premium.

Also applies to top scale, but that is just 12 YOS.

Given marginal tax rates and lifestyle, there are quite a few pilots that choose senior WB FO over NB CA and even WB CA.

[rooster]

Was called to interview in 2008 and 2018. Both times I couldn't take the paycut and told them so. Don't regret it at all. Airline flying is not for me.

So you applied knowing you couldn't take the paycut, then you did it again 10 years for the same reason? What am I missing here? AC's salary isn't exactly a big corporate secret.

Applied, got a call, re-evaluated my financial position, couldn't bring myself to take the cut. Also realized I wouldn't enjoy the type of flying. Is that easier to understand?

Not really. You knew the first time you applied what the salary was going to be and what type of flying you'd expect. You couldn't have evaluated finances and lifestyle at the time of application? In either case, you went ahead and did it again 10 years later and decided again the pay and flying wasn't for you? Me thinks AC dodged one here.

I agree the flat pay is crap at Air Canada. It's downright garbage. But people, for god's sake don't be applying places if you don't think it's for you!!! That ain't rocket science

To lighten up a bit, I do hope things worked out for you in the end JHR

[JHR]

It was satisfying to tell AC that the pay was too low. Maybe if others did that things might change. Yes things worked out for me. I enjoy going to work.

[Admiral Benson]

For some people getting the job offer and then turning it down is important. Then you don't spend the next 30 years wondering if you would have made it. You know you made it. You can't actually say that you made a CHOICE to stay unless you rejected an offer. Otherwise it's all hypothetical.

[digits_]

I agree the flat pay is crap at Air Canada. It's downright garbage. But people, for god's sake don't be applying places if you don't think it's for you!!! That ain't rocket science

To lighten up a bit, I do hope things worked out for you in the end JHR

Does Air Canada publish their payscale in their ads?
If not, you can't blame someone for applying to get the official salary info vs rumoured -although likely correct- info found on avcanada.

[schnitzel2k3]

I agree the flat pay is crap at Air Canada. It's downright garbage. But people, for god's sake don't be applying places if you don't think it's for you!!! That ain't rocket science

To lighten up a bit, I do hope things worked out for you in the end JHR

Does Air Canada publish their payscale in their ads?
If not, you can't blame someone for applying to get the official salary info vs rumoured -although likely correct- info found on avcanada.

If Air Canada officially published those numbers on a job ad, and it made it into the general public, I feel people would be very concerned.

The fact that Air Canada makes as much money as it does, provides the service (or lack thereof) it does, and pays over 1/3 of the pilots what it does; the people ultimately in charge of getting them from A-B in one piece - it certainly leaves one to scratch their head. Must be nice to the ONLY fish in the pond.

[Col. Panic]

While they don’t publish pay scales in their ads, the CBA is publicly available on the Labour Canada website, so accurate numbers can be found, with a little effort.

[digits_]

While they don’t publish pay scales in their ads, the CBA is publicly available on the Labour Canada website, so accurate numbers can be found, with a little effort.

True, which also makes you wonder why they don't publish starting pay in their ads. Or link to the CBA.

[Hangry]

Could be wrong but I don’t think AC has ever run an ad for pilots.

[schnitzel2k3]

Could be wrong but I don’t think AC has ever run an ad for pilots.

Does running it on their career we site count? They do have/had a whole spiel on there about what it's like to be a flight crew.

Again can't see them being proud of the starting pay. I think nearly everyone going into it is fairly aware.

[ant_321]

So you applied knowing you couldn't take the paycut, then you did it again 10 years for the same reason? What am I missing here? AC's salary isn't exactly a big corporate secret.

Applied, got a call, re-evaluated my financial position, couldn't bring myself to take the cut. Also realized I wouldn't enjoy the type of flying. Is that easier to understand?

Not really. You knew the first time you applied what the salary was going to be and what type of flying you'd expect. You couldn't have evaluated finances and lifestyle at the time of application? In either case, you went ahead and did it again 10 years later and decided again the pay and flying wasn't for you? Me thinks AC dodged one here.

I agree the flat pay is crap at Air Canada. It's downright garbage. But people, for god's sake don't be applying places if you don't think it's for you!!! That ain't rocket science

To lighten up a bit, I do hope things worked out for you in the end JHR

I disagree. If enough people waste Air Canada’s time and resources and at the end of the process say no because the pay is too low it would send a message across.

[Hangry]

Does anyone actually think the HR people give 2 seconds thought to your life circumstance or your beliefs? Turn them down and they just move on.

Right or wrong you’re just flexing on yourself. The way it is.

[Curiousflyer]

Personally, I'd really like to see tangible examples of 5-7 year FO pay NB or WB, and 10 year left seat actual gross or actual take-home. There's so much misinformation. Not looking for best case possibilities or outliers but rather conservative, average income. Yes, the payscale matrixes are there but there's a lot of lateral ambiguity. PM if you'd like, thanks.

They payscale matrixes are your best bet for non biased information and run it at 75-80 hours a month. AC pilots don't have much in the way of deductions, union dues 1% (although likely to go up to at least 1.5% by the end of the year. Pension contributions are 7.5% employee paid when above 5 years of service for anyone not on the DB pension. The rest just throw into any provincial tax calculator for provincial/federal taxes, CPP, and EI.

Also, all training (when not on a course) is paid outside of the monthly flying. With 6-8 training events a year @4:25 pay, you'd add between 26:30-35:20 a year in pay. It would be simpler to run the monthly hourly rates at 77.5 hours to 82.5 hours to show this difference.

737 FO rates for 5 year is119/hr (day night average) and 7 year is 128.5/hr. The other numbers presented in the WJA contract comparison (June 2022) are accurate.

You asked for non outliers and then got a massive outlier for 777 FO pay. While some are no doubt pulling in that much, the converative answer is not nearly the same. Hourly rates on 777 (12 year) FO is 204/hr. Which is more like 190k-205k a year.

Now obviously OT is available and can be lucrative, but it's a personal decision. So be honest about how much OT you expect to do, then work the hourly rates into your expected position. OT is typically 50% premium, but an MOA was signed giving most OT circumstances a 100% until the end of 2024. Also bear in mind that OT on the WB will be much harder to come by with the new duty rules as its nearly impossible to pick up another overseas pairing a month.

Per Diems can range widely, senior NB captains can take home a grand total of 0$ in per diems for the month. International flights have boarded meals for flight crew and no per diem is paid. If your entire month is Carribean turns, you won't get any per diems. The per diem information in the WJA contract comparison is accurate. Averages would be about 8k a year on the NB and 12k a year on the WB.

[schnitzel2k3]

Does anyone actually think the HR people give 2 seconds thought to your life circumstance or your beliefs? Turn them down and they just move on.

Right or wrong you’re just flexing on yourself. The way it is.

'Flexing on yourself' - also called, thinking about ones family, standing by ones beliefs, having self respect, and joining the unfortunate minority who believe you could do much better, for not just yourselves, but the industry you torched as you said 'Sure, one day I'll be a decently paid Air Canada pilot, but first I'm going to make sure I have trouble supporting my family for the next 4 years, particularly in the event of another recession or outbreak or continue living with my parents until I get that sweet upgrade, so I can feel what its like to really be BOTL'.

By refusing to accept the offer, we ARE sending a message that experienced aviators are very willing to refuse the conditions set by ACPA. Just because AC and ACPA are too big, ignorant and protected to hear that message doesn't mean it isn't being transmitted.

[YULCompanyManDan]

You dip$hits that want to reject a job offer are making a grave mistake!! Tabarnac

Flight ops won't give a rat$ a$$ about you avocado toast eating whiners that won't sign on to pay your dues after paying your dues. The company only budgets so much for pilots and I believe them so we had to choose and we ain't gonna waste time or money on the unborn! This was a group move for solidarity & Blake agrees!! Look how unified we are now. The junior peon pilots love me & the boyz

I have a great relationship with the management and it's awesome here just hate it when they stick me in a middle seat. Middle seats are for crummy Commuters or other bottom of the barrel of pilots. Tabarnac!!!