AC Pay/Progress

[Vanguard]

I know some of these questions have been asked — I am just looking for opinions on my situation.

Y5WJ FO — mid 30s…On track making over 160-180k this year working 10-13days. 6weeks of vacation. Weekends are usually off and I pretty much have never not gotten days off I needed. Yes with all the bullshit out there about WJs take home pay - overall compensation isn’t too bad. Unlimited OT as well. Take home pay does suck because of the 20% ESP but no one on this earth matches your contribution to 20% either.


I like many others have become extremely confused with the future of WJ. They will always be the narrow-body king in Canada. I’ve personally never chased metal however I got into this game wanting to one day fly widebody and travel more than I already do. When we had the 787 program in YYZ things were looking pretty hopeful however with this new recent announcement it has become more confusing.

I already know much about the AC contract and I agree for an airline or that magnitude it his highly brutal that FOs are on Flat Pay however past that how is life for the pilots there? Are you all happy with your schedules, happy with the people you fly with? WJ guys are all pretty awesome, maybe a few DBs but overall the work atmosphere isn’t bad. Our majority of the problems lie with management like all pilots. My career like many FOs here has been decent but my upgrade seems to get longer and longer. Apparently there is a NB order coming soon.

I don’t want to retire on the 737 for the rest of my life — that’s my big contention if any.

Before I get roasted I am just looking for information if it makes sense for people like me to jump ship and start BOTL at AC. Everyone in Canada thinks AC is Valhalla and I know it isn’t — just looking for some real advise.

[bcflyer]

You’re making $180,000 as a 5th year 737 F/O? That’s about $50,000 more than you’ll make as a 5th year F/O at AC. And you’ll be working a lot more days. Not sure how long it would take to make up the difference if you made the switch.

[DanWEC]

I know some of these questions have been asked — I am just looking for opinions on my situation.

Y5WJ FO — mid 30s…On track making over 160-180k this year working 10-13days. 6weeks of vacation. Weekends are usually off and I pretty much have never not gotten days off I needed. Yes with all the bullshit out there about WJs take home pay - overall compensation isn’t too bad. Unlimited OT as well. Take home pay does suck because of the 20% ESP but no one on this earth matches your contribution to 20% either.

I'd say anyone under 40 should probably go to AC if they can, but normally from a lower tier operator. You're going to sacrifice 5 years to do it in your case.

My first question, can you post WJ's payscale and show how you're making more than a junior NB capt at AC or year 11 FO at TS? I'm super curious.

[Hangry]

I know some of these questions have been asked — I am just looking for opinions on my situation.

Y5WJ FO — mid 30s…On track making over 160-180k this year working 10-13days. 6weeks of vacation. Weekends are usually off and I pretty much have never not gotten days off I needed. Yes with all the bullshit out there about WJs take home pay - overall compensation isn’t too bad. Unlimited OT as well. Take home pay does suck because of the 20% ESP but no one on this earth matches your contribution to 20% either.

I'd say anyone under 40 should probably go to AC if they can, but normally from a lower tier operator. You're going to sacrifice 5 years to do it in your case.

My first question, can you post WJ's payscale and show how you're making more than a junior NB capt at AC or year 11 FO at TS? I'm super curious.

No NB CA at AC makes less than that.

[Art Vandelay]

Vanguard summarized very well what myself and quite a few other WJ FOs are thinking. Also for the AC guys reading his/her post, that 160-180K is including our 20% contribution and the company's 20% match, so it's difficult to compare when a yr5 AC FO is making 130K as you say but with a full pension after punching 25-30 years.

I'm on yr3 FO pay which is $89/hr. That plus $1200 REIP/month my take home for the first half of the year averaged $43-4400 a month (since we pay for our benefits; short term, long term and the taxes on both our 20% & WJ's match), which correct me if I'm wrong is not a whole lot different than year1 take home on flat pay.

Our vacation credit and how the blocks are allotted is hard to beat (blocks of 5 days worth 22.5H credit hours vs ACs 2.9H per day?). I got every week I asked for spread throughout the year with a couple in summer. A month with a 5 day block of vacation you can expect to work 8-11 days. That being said with the take home pay being the way it is, I'm averaging two or more days of OT a month, which comes to 24+ days per year to take home $52-5500/month.

There's pros and cons to working at both airlines but as Vanguard said the future of what WestJet will be is hard to predict, especially out of YYZ. The company lost its way and seems to want to get back on track but how it executes that remains to be seen, AC will always exist and looks like is growing far more rapidly than we are in the next couple of years.

[Vanguard]

I appreciate the responses.


Our compensation at WJ is as follows:

My hourly is 110.34 this year.

110.34 x 77.5 (min credit) = 8551.34 x 12 months = 102,616$ + 20% ESP = $123,139.00 + 7310 = 130449 base salary.

We also get a yearly cash bonus of 7310$ every May to replace our cash options since there is no WJ stock now.

That’s my base salary not including perdiems / bonuses and profit share which at the peak has been 5000$.

OT is readily available and I can work
8-12 days + pick up 2-4 days high credit days at 1.5x. My average is 30hrs which is around 60k. Like I said all of us here build our schedule and days off here are the best something that makes it truly difficult to look at AC at.

I also have 6 weeks of vacation total. 4 weeks + 2 weeks of stats (11 days)

Our only main issue here is our take home pay because we pay benefits and the tax upfront on our 20%. We are your most T4 rich but cash poor pilots of Canada.

Oh also something no one ever mentions here … at WJ listing available for OT is higher than reserve. If you list AVL you get first choice to pick up. Doesn’t mean you have to but you get called before reserve guys. Reserve is quite new to us and something I’m sure company wants to fix in next agreement but for now it’s great because the callout order is great.

As I write this I already seem to answer my question lol. Hard to want to fly 777 for 58k and ride out reserve for years.

[Sharklasers]

So you make $180k as an FO by flying a full block and then an additional 360 hours of draft a year?
I’ve always been a ‘dance with the girl that brought you’ kinda guy. It’s tough to give up a seniority number and all that entails.

[Latitude]

Always makes me laugh when people add overtime they do and say they make X amount per year. Matter of a fact your overtime will never be guaranteed so you cant take that into account in comparing pay scales.

Fact is AC pay is higher and you're not stuck flying a clapped out 737 forever ...

[Vanguard]

Always makes me laugh when people add overtime they do and say they make X amount per year. Matter of a fact your overtime will never be guaranteed so you cant take that into account in comparing pay scales.

Fact is AC pay is higher and you're not stuck flying a crapped out 737 forever ...

I only work 8-13 days max doing all of that and I know that’s guaranteed. I know guys who are making over 200k and that to me is killing yourself a bit. I’m just the average guy flying 60-70hrs a month if that.


Everyone who knows the industry knows well enough or actually understands knows WJ is ahead of AC for the first 7yrs. The only caveat is if you get off flat pay which btw is also not guarantee like most guys think. Upgrade takes a lot of work regardless where you are and it takes one eff up to go back to square one. I’m just trying to figure out long term… if I had the choice I’d burn down Canadian aviation which is subpar by far but not all of us have plans to move to the US. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else so these are the cards I deal with…


I just haven’t found any fair argument other than long term AC is a better job …. But even AC is subpar to the rest of the world that calls themselves “star alliance” …777/787 FO making barely 60k is worse than a swoop captain making 107$/hr

Everyone says the word long term it’s good but based based on what? Pension? Retirement? Schedule? Pay? Benefits? I’m trying to figure out how it makes sense for a person like me to put myself through pain. Oh also not to mention AC needed two bailouts… WJ is by far from perfect but I need more than it’s better long term to make a decision. I think this topic may help people decide as well because we all seem to think grass is greener on the other side but it really isn’t always. I appreciate you guys engaging once again.

[RippleRock]

Everyone says the word long term it’s good but based based on what?

If it's based on the quality of your "representation"......do NOT come here. Our union is yellow, and has a poor track record of standing up for Membership rights. Any form of unity has been "incinerated" by division piled upon other divisive factors through 15 years of "vote buying" to pass agreements that have "ZERO snap-back". We are probably the most ununified and "fractured group" of any Major airline in the world. ACPA is the most pathetically underperforming union ever to represent a large pilot group in the history of Aviation worldwide. Our compensation package and our "sloppily worded contract" reflects this clearly. Do a quick search of other Star Alliance partner salaries and working conditions. It's a bit shocking. Don't even bother comparing our Cargo compensation and condition package....it's even worse.

No one knows whos coming or going. Moral, at least in regard to our union, sucks badly. If the number of pilots showing up at union meetings or those who actively get involved in online chat forums is any indication of interest or engagement.....you'll again be shocked by the low number. No one seems to give two $hits.

One caveat is the Company itself is good, and they pay on time. Keep an eye on expenses.

Chose wisely.

[altiplano]

I've flown with a few guys from Westjet that came here and said that even their flat pay had more take home than their year 6, 7, 8 WJ FO pay had. I guess you guys have lots of deductions you pay for. Does the flat pay experiment come to an end to attract guys like you second guessing a move, I think it's likely, but the corporation will have to come to that realization and pay up on its own.

Relying on 30 hours draft every month sounds a little unrealistic. Are you doing that? You said "average line guy flying 60-70hrs a month." and you said "OT is readily available. My average is 30hrs." Either way, I wouldn't want to be flying an extra 30 hours every month to make my numbers work.

As for "bailouts" there was one federal loan that was paid back in full. AC walked on the most recently negotiated covid loan package and currently has billions in liquidity. On a similar but note, I may have some concern on what Onex has for intentions at WJ... Swoop, Encore, now Sunwing... what is the end game there? I guess really corporate and government maneuvering, finance, and shenanigans is beyond our scope of more pay, less work and I'm pretty confident that both airlines will endure long term.

It sounds like you like it there, how far out is the upgrade? If within a couple years I would stay put, you guys are first contract still with a new one on the horizon, I bet you see significant gains, your union is better than ours.

[Canadaflyer46]

I think for YYC based folks here it’s a harder decision to uproot for flat pay. If you’re already YYZ based then it’s a no brainer in my opinion. The aircraft/lifestyle variety alone plus career progression isn’t something we get at WJ. A YYZ upgrade these days would be realistically 15 years for someone with 5 years seniority. Probably 20 years for Calgary. Last couple of bids had no upgrades, I guess the pilot shortage worrying other airlines doesn’t affect WJ. If the FO pay scale was improved considerably then there may be some benefit to sticking it out at WJ as a senior FO, but otherwise your career capping out at $124/hr for many years just isn’t worth it. Rip the bandaid off.

[Vanguard]

I've flown with a few guys from Westjet that came here and said that even their flat pay had more take home than their year 6, 7, 8 WJ FO pay had. I guess you guys have lots of deductions you pay for. Does the flat pay experiment come to an end to attract guys like you second guessing a move, I think it's likely, but the corporation will have to come to that realization and pay up on its own.

Relying on 30 hours draft every month sounds a little unrealistic. Are you doing that? You said "average line guy flying 60-70hrs a month." and you said "OT is readily available. My average is 30hrs." Either way, I wouldn't want to be flying an extra 30 hours every month to make my numbers work.

As for "bailouts" there was one federal loan that was paid back in full. AC walked on the most recently negotiated covid loan package and currently has billions in liquidity. On a similar but note, I may have some concern on what Onex has for intentions at WJ... Swoop, Encore, now Sunwing... what is the end game there? I guess really corporate and government maneuvering, finance, and shenanigans is beyond our scope of more pay, less work and I'm pretty confident that both airlines will endure long term.

It sounds like you like it there, how far out is the upgrade? If within a couple years I would stay put, you guys are first contract still with a new one on the horizon, I bet you see significant gains, your union is better than ours.

I’m not actually hard flying 30hrs extra.

For example a simple DH YYZ-YOW and operate back the next day is worth 12hrs for us. OR you can do 15hrs credit in a single day doing a long southern turn. You do 3 of the long ones in a month spread out it’s a easy 30hrs of hard flying worth 45hr credits.

Hard to say where upgrades stand now at WJ — probably another 4yrs for me so I guess about the same as if I went to AC at this point. I guess it’s really down to swallowing my pride.

I think for the FOs you flew with there is now a turning point. They probably and most likely didn’t have YOS to ÇA rates back then. Working up the pay scale from Y1 would make me want to put an application in right away but I guess that’s also a point to consider for guys here.

[Art Vandelay]

After a few years in the right seat of a narrowbody at AC how many days per month could you expect to work? What of that of a mid seniority widebody FO?

[Stu Pidasso]

My 2 cents Vanguard.

We currently have the best Flight Operations Management team that I have seen in my time here and that's a long time. The four year flat pay is an embarrassment that is shared by the association and the department. A Pilot earning less than the FA bringing you your coffee, or the Rampie loading the bags is outrageous.

That said, I will predict it will be fixed in the next 12 months on the reopener. Plus it it is a short ride to a NB Left Seat. We do seem to breed a generation of Pilots that believe it is below their dignity to fly 16 days/month - but that's another story.

Contrary to what you hear, the CWIPP Pension is excellent, arguably better in some aspects to the DB. At least the money is yours! Kicker is, you need to bid up to higher paying positions and can no longer be a RP for 20 years.

Nothing in this industry is perfect but I strongly believe it is hands down the best Flying Job in the country.

Good luck with the decision. Cheers

[Col. Panic]

244AFCC4-0D4F-493D-AA58-5ACFB2E88668.jpeg (332.75 KiB) Viewed 4198 times

Here is my 2019 end of year paystub. 40% yr1/60% yr 2. Rates are now 6% higher, but who knows how long before we see the ACPA AIP (profit share) again! I did a little draft, probably about 5 days…. They’re not offering 2.5 x draft anymore, so YMMV.

[Vanguard]

My 2 cents Vanguard.

We currently have the best Flight Operations Management team that I have seen in my time here and that's a long time. The four year flat pay is an embarrassment that is shared by the association and the department. A Pilot earning less than the FA bringing you your coffee, or the Rampie loading the bags is outrageous.

That said, I will predict it will be fixed in the next 12 months on the reopener. Plus it it is a short ride to a NB Left Seat. We do seem to breed a generation of Pilots that believe it is below their dignity to fly 16 days/month - but that's another story.

Contrary to what you hear, the CWIPP Pension is excellent, arguably better in some aspects to the DB. At least the money is yours! Kicker is, you need to bid up to higher paying positions and can no longer be a RP for 20 years.

Nothing in this industry is perfect but I strongly believe it is hands down the best Flying Job in the country.

Good luck with the decision. Cheers

I truly appreciate that. Thank you!

[Vanguard]

244AFCC4-0D4F-493D-AA58-5ACFB2E88668.jpeg
Here is my 2019 end of year paystub. 40% yr1/60% yr 2. Rates are now 6% higher, but who knows how long before we see the ACPA AIP (profit share) again! I did a little draft, probably about 5 days…. They’re not offering 2.5 x draft anymore, so YMMV.

Thank you for some true insight. That’s what I wanted to know and it’s really appreciated!

[Art Vandelay]

Thanks Col. Essentially taking home close to 5K a month if you average it out. If you take away the profit share and draft then your monthly take home is close to what I'm making as a year 3 FO at WJ; a couple hundred per month less.

[Col. Panic]

You can also note that I opted for 6% ESOP, for a total of $3832 in shares. The company matched with another $1264 the following year. I have now upped my contribution to 10%, but the whole plan is optional. The percentage is based only on Pilots Flying Pay, and Vacation Taken-FLT…. None of the other categories affect how much you contribute.