Training bond and fail PPC

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nappo787
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Training bond and fail PPC

Post by nappo787 »

Hey guys

I’m wondering if this is normal on most 703s, they require you to pay the bond even if you fail the ride? Is this an industry normal thing on most operators? Or is it a red flag on a small % of operators?

Any info would be very much appreciated since I’ve got to offers and both state pilot must pay the bond if fails the ride.
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digits_
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

nappo787 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:23 pm Hey guys

I’m wondering if this is normal on most 703s, they require you to pay the bond even if you fail the ride? Is this an industry normal thing on most operators? Or is it a red flag on a small % of operators?

Any info would be very much appreciated since I’ve got to offers and both state pilot must pay the bond if fails the ride.
No it isn't normal. There's likely some wording in there that you have to 'give your best' during training. But a bond usually makes you pay when you decide to leave the company, not when a company fires you because you are incompetent, assuming you didn't fail intentionally.

The industry standard way is to give you extra training at least once and give you another shot.

That probably won't happen if you show up stoned to your checkride, but if you failed by busting an altitude because you were nervous, that shouldn't be grounds for firing.
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nappo787
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by nappo787 »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:28 pm
nappo787 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:23 pm Hey guys

I’m wondering if this is normal on most 703s, they require you to pay the bond even if you fail the ride? Is this an industry normal thing on most operators? Or is it a red flag on a small % of operators?

Any info would be very much appreciated since I’ve got to offers and both state pilot must pay the bond if fails the ride.
No it isn't normal. There's likely some wording in there that you have to 'give your best' during training. But a bond usually makes you pay when you decide to leave the company, not when a company fires you because you are incompetent, assuming you didn't fail intentionally.

The industry standard way is to give you extra training at least once and give you another shot.

That probably won't happen if you show up stoned to your checkride, but if you failed by busting an altitude because you were nervous, that shouldn't be grounds for firing.
It does say yes that you will give you best, but then below one of the points clearly mention 14 days to pay the bond if you fail the PPC... so I'm kind lost, any ideas? Should I just disregard or just not get that job for this company and take it as a red flag?
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330heavy
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by 330heavy »

Ask them, have them explain in better detail of a legal contract they’re imposing on you
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digits_
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

nappo787 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:12 pm
digits_ wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:28 pm
nappo787 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:23 pm Hey guys

I’m wondering if this is normal on most 703s, they require you to pay the bond even if you fail the ride? Is this an industry normal thing on most operators? Or is it a red flag on a small % of operators?

Any info would be very much appreciated since I’ve got to offers and both state pilot must pay the bond if fails the ride.
No it isn't normal. There's likely some wording in there that you have to 'give your best' during training. But a bond usually makes you pay when you decide to leave the company, not when a company fires you because you are incompetent, assuming you didn't fail intentionally.

The industry standard way is to give you extra training at least once and give you another shot.

That probably won't happen if you show up stoned to your checkride, but if you failed by busting an altitude because you were nervous, that shouldn't be grounds for firing.
It does say yes that you will give you best, but then below one of the points clearly mention 14 days to pay the bond if you fail the PPC... so I'm kind lost, any ideas? Should I just disregard or just not get that job for this company and take it as a red flag?
I wouldn't be comfortable signing that. But if you don't have any other options... I would talk to a lawyer. That particular clause might not be enforceable. After all, they are supposed to provide you with good training. So if you fail, are you incompetent, or did they not provide you with the proper training?

Is it an in-house training or a flight safety kind of thing?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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lownslow
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by lownslow »

If there’s an equal or better job, take that instead.

Otherwise do you know anyone at the company so you can glean a sort of feel for how this would really be handled? Generally training bonds are less than the actual cost of training so it’s typically be in their best interest to give a couple shots at getting you a PPC. If they cease your training mid-way you could also make an argument (in front of a judge) that your training was incomplete and the bond invalid.
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frog
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by frog »

It's a big fat no for
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flyndad
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by flyndad »

I know of a Pilot who was in that exact position where he was on the hook for 18 K having failed a PCC with a well known BC company.
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twa22
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by twa22 »

No, run away. I signed a bond recently and nowhere in it did it say anything like that... who are these companies writing this shit in these contracts, and then people wonder why this industry is so screwed up. Sometimes failing a ppc isn't even in your control if your sim partner is the one who screwed something up, and they fail you as a pair, not individually, so unless you're completely incompetent and don't know your left from your right, there is absolutely no reason to have someone on the hook for a bond if they failed the first time... now if you keep failing over and over, well, then that's more understandable.
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lownslow
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by lownslow »

For what it’s worth, back when I was hiring and administering bonds the goal was to only hire people who would pass. There was no training outcome-specific language in our bond but it was implied. Still, if someone was unsuccessful at their second attempt I would waive their bond and take it as a lesson to myself to do a better job in vetting candidates.

On the other hand, do my actions mean that the successful candidates were covering the training costs of the ones who failed?
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digits_
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

lownslow wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:06 am For what it’s worth, back when I was hiring and administering bonds the goal was to only hire people who would pass. There was no training outcome-specific language in our bond but it was implied. Still, if someone was unsuccessful at their second attempt I would waive their bond and take it as a lesson to myself to do a better job in vetting candidates.

On the other hand, do my actions mean that the successful candidates were covering the training costs of the ones who failed?
No, your customers were covering all your training expenses and all your other business expenses.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Bede
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bede »

Here are a few thoughts:
1) Yes, the bond is in all likelihood enforceable. Don't ever count on a lawyer getting you out of it. Even if your lawyer can get you out of it, you'll likely spend more in legal costs.
2) Ask them if the bond is negotiable. If they're not willing to bend on it, wait until the last minute (day before you're supposed to sign the bond and then turn them down.
3) If they send you a pdf of the bond, make changes as you see fit, print it out, sign it and give it back to them. Not a chance they'll read over it. It will definitely be unenforceable for you and you won't be a popular guy, but whatever.
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digits_
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

Bede wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:53 pm 1) Yes, the bond is in all likelihood enforceable. Don't ever count on a lawyer getting you out of it. Even if your lawyer can get you out of it, you'll likely spend more in legal costs.
Wouldn't the majority of the costs fall on the company trying to get money from the OP? (assuming OP's lawyer is succesful) After all, it's the company that would need to initiate the legal proceedings, no?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by flyinhigh »

Bede wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:53 pm Here are a few thoughts:
1) Yes, the bond is in all likelihood enforceable. Don't ever count on a lawyer getting you out of it. Even if your lawyer can get you out of it, you'll likely spend more in legal costs.
2) Ask them if the bond is negotiable. If they're not willing to bend on it, wait until the last minute (day before you're supposed to sign the bond and then turn them down.
3) If they send you a pdf of the bond, make changes as you see fit, print it out, sign it and give it back to them. Not a chance they'll read over it. It will definitely be unenforceable for you and you won't be a popular guy, but whatever.
And if they say that the bond must be signed prior to training, but give it to you after the fact, say “no thanks, you broke your own policies”.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

Don't put all your faith in a signature, or lack of one. If you know there's a bond, you're offered training on the basis of a bond, you're given a copy of the bond, and you accept the training, you're going to have to work very very very hard indeed to show that you didn't demonstrate your acceptance of the bond purely by showing up for the training, whether you signed the paper or not. You absolutely don't have to sign a contract to be bound by it.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Here's a thought, how about say you're not comfortable signing a "training agreement". Slide it back across and say, I'm happy to do the job for you and provide you with significant return on investment.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:46 pm Don't put all your faith in a signature, or lack of one. If you know there's a bond, you're offered training on the basis of a bond, you're given a copy of the bond, and you accept the training, you're going to have to work very very very hard indeed to show that you didn't demonstrate your acceptance of the bond purely by showing up for the training, whether you signed the paper or not. You absolutely don't have to sign a contract to be bound by it.
I would think that would be a very, very difficult situation for the company to enforce. There's a world of difference between what you're suggesting and, let's say, you not signing a work order for a contractor to build you a garage.

Years ago I worked for a company who didn't ask for the bond months after I was trained. When they finally came for the money I said I didn't have it anymore. I would not normally do such a thing, but the wages and working conditions were drastically different than what I was told when I was hired. I was an excellent employee and they liked me so they didn't bring it up again.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

Bede wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:47 pm
photofly wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:46 pm Don't put all your faith in a signature, or lack of one. If you know there's a bond, you're offered training on the basis of a bond, you're given a copy of the bond, and you accept the training, you're going to have to work very very very hard indeed to show that you didn't demonstrate your acceptance of the bond purely by showing up for the training, whether you signed the paper or not. You absolutely don't have to sign a contract to be bound by it.
I would think that would be a very, very difficult situation for the company to enforce. There's a world of difference between what you're suggesting and, let's say, you not signing a work order for a contractor to build you a garage.
Could be difficult. Could be very easy.

"Dear new-recruit. Please attend training beginning 0900 at such-and-such-address on such-and-such a date. We would like to remind you that all new pilot recruits are subject to our training agreement which includes a bond as described in the contract agreement, a further copy of which is attached to this email. Kindly confirm within the next seven days by replying to this email your planned attendance on the date and at the place specified. Your attendance at the training will constitute an indication of your acceptance of the contract terms attached."

I'm just saying, don't try to rely on technicalities like "I didn't actually sign it" as a get-out-of-jail card. There's nothing special about writing your name on a piece of paper.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by twa22 »

photofly wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:58 pm
Bede wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:47 pm
photofly wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:46 pm Don't put all your faith in a signature, or lack of one. If you know there's a bond, you're offered training on the basis of a bond, you're given a copy of the bond, and you accept the training, you're going to have to work very very very hard indeed to show that you didn't demonstrate your acceptance of the bond purely by showing up for the training, whether you signed the paper or not. You absolutely don't have to sign a contract to be bound by it.
I would think that would be a very, very difficult situation for the company to enforce. There's a world of difference between what you're suggesting and, let's say, you not signing a work order for a contractor to build you a garage.
Could be difficult. Could be very easy.

"Dear new-recruit. Please attend training beginning 0900 at such-and-such-address on such-and-such a date. We would like to remind you that all new pilot recruits are subject to our training agreement which includes a bond as described in the contract agreement, a further copy of which is attached to this email. Kindly confirm within the next seven days by replying to this email your planned attendance on the date and at the place specified. Your attendance at the training will constitute an indication of your acceptance of the contract terms attached."

I'm just saying, don't try to rely on technicalities like "I didn't actually sign it" as a get-out-of-jail card. There's nothing special about writing your name on a piece of paper.
How is that example any different then physically signing under the dotted line. By replying yes I will attend you are virtually signing your name to the training agreement which has a bond attached to it. Whether you acknowledged it via a signature, or an email signature "saying yes I agree to the terms", is to me, just semantics at this point

Why do people have to complicate things in these threads. OP simply asked if it's normal practice to be on the hook for a bond if one fails a PPC, and what he/she should do, and some very simple answers were given, the rest is irrelevant to their question
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photofly
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

twa22 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:07 pm
How is that example any different then physically signing under the dotted line.
It's not the email, but the attending of the training that isn't any different to signing under the dotted line - not the reply to the email. Which is my point. You can't behave as though you are entering into an agreement and then say that you didn't really mean it just because they didn't collect your signature. They don't need a signature for an agreement to be binding.
Why do people have to complicate things in these threads. OP simply asked if it's normal practice to be on the hook for a bond if one fails a PPC, and what he/she should do, and some very simple answers were given, the rest is irrelevant to their question
It was in response to this:
And if they say that the bond must be signed prior to training, but give it to you after the fact, say “no thanks, you broke your own policies”.
It's one thing to tell you about the bond 'after the fact' - but if you know about it 'before the fact', that they didn't make you sign it is basically irrelevant.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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