How long should a person be an instructor?

JW · Post by JW » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:03 am

I'm curious to see what advice you all have for me on this topic. I've often heard that your should instruct until you have 1000 PIC. It will make you employable and also help you upgrade faster. That seems like a lot of time to me, so could a person expect to get a flying job with 500-600 PIC? What would you do if you got to do it all again, or what are you doing now? Of course this doesn't apply to people who want to be an career instructor.

Thanks,
JW

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:09 am

1000 TT and then get some multi time. If you can teach on the twin great, if not go to a different school (IE Perimeter) and get it.

Keep applying to all the tier 3 opperators every other week, and jump at one if given the chance. Sure you'll sit right seat for a long while, but it doesnt matter, it's all about TT and getting something new on your resume to round it out. The key is to get somewhere that fly's alot!!!

if you have more than 1000 hours and your still not on the twinn, find a new job. too much instructional time will hurt you.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:04 am

uuummmmmmmm .........

How long a person is an instructor (or ramp rat) is determined by pilot hiring.

When the economy is poor, and no one is hiring, people can end up instructing (and be on the ramp) for a very long time.

When the economy is good, and there is hiring, people will instruct (or be on the ramp) only briefly before moving on/up.

The aviation industry does not exist to provide pilots jobs, and timely upgrades.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:00 am

Strange that everyone seems to see instructing only as an hour building job - something to be in & out of as quickly as possible. And yet there are numerous rants on various topics on this website saying that a 250 hr wonder can't instruct properly!
I agree that there are many reasons for getting out of instructing - the pay ain't great, and for most pilots (I assume!), one of the main reasons in leaving instructing for another flying position is to earn more dough.
And I agree that a newly qualified 19 year old instructor cannot give the same level of instruction as an instructor who has been teaching for 2 or 3 years. Experience counts for a lot - if it didn't then we'd all be able to get 747 FO positions with 250 hrs TT! (I know, you can in some parts of the world, but would you want to fly there?).
I've found that compared to now (I've over 1300 hrs instructing, and I love it!), when I was a newby Class 4, I knew squat.
In addition, life skills also help, especially when dealing with older students, and again, the older you are, the more life skills you have. The best instructor I've met was a guy in his mid 50's, thousands of hours flying bush & charter. His students always performed the best in their rides, and they also seemed the happiest!
So, for all the newby pilots who instruct just to get the hours, then leave - don't bitch later on that the quality of flight instruction in Canada sucks. If you have no desire to actually be doing a particular job (in this case, teaching), then don't do it to begin with. Seek another path!

JW · Post by JW » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:17 pm

Thanks for the reply dave, but it didn't really have anything to do with my original post.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:21 pm

Justwork.

The point I was trying to make, and missed!!! was that for the benefit of future pilots, instructors shouldn't up & quit after 500 - 700 hrs, just when they're starting to actually get quite good at the job!
Maybe a new thread on this topic is needed.
In reply to your initial post, all the instructors I know who moved on to non-instructiong jobs had taught for at least 1200 hrs (3000+ for the last one).

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:28 pm

A good que for you to leave would be when the school has lots of students but erveryone is reluctant to send you any...

Switchfoot · Post by **Switchfoot** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:17 pm

laticsdave wrote: So, for all the newby pilots who instruct just to get the hours, then leave - don't bitch later on that the quality of flight instruction in Canada sucks. If you have no desire to actually be doing a particular job (in this case, teaching), then don't do it to begin with. Seek another path!

While I agree with most of your post, I might add in a point here to your last comment. When you're starting out in the business and nobody will hire you due to a lack of experience or flight time, instructing is one of the best ways to go. It will get you some valuable PIC time and help you achieve the ATPL faster.

I left after 1000 hours of instructing but it has helped me along the road in many ways. I wish something could be done about the quality of instruction also...that is, to have experienced folks who have flown in the bush, or charter, or medevac, so-to-speak, 'real world' flying experience and then take that to teach. It would make a HUGE difference I think in the training world.

Switch.

fromeasttowest · Post by **fromeasttowest** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:01 am

Couple things to say here. Dave, if all of the instructors that you know have had at least 1200 hours before heading into no instructional jobs then why are you so bent out of shape? Obviously the instructors that take off after 700 hours don't effect you. Right? The other thing I want to talk about is, who here has heard of: "I can't get a job because I have no experience, I have no experience because I can't get a job" ?? What is a low time pilot to do? Do I instruct and get crapped on by people that thinK I can't teach because I have no experience (see cat driver's posts), or do I work ramp for a year (if I'm lucky), or buy a ppc, get on in the right seat and crash just to hear people say I should have never been there in the first place because I was low time. Someone please explain to me where the compromise is? What can a low time guy do to build time with out being shat on by everyone else?

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:31 am

A high percentage of instructors are in it to build time, no questions asked. It's up to TC and even more the Chief Flying Instructor to decide if they can teach or not. Don't blame the instructor, he/she went through a Class 1, then TC inspector, then the CFI. If he/she is bad at teaching, why didn't the experienced Class 1 catch it? why didn't TC catch it? Why did the CFI hire him/her?

All the power to you if you're instructing to build time. You have to put up with lots of shit, the last thing you need is to be crapped on by other pilots. Unlike you and me, they went from CPL to ATP overnight.

As I see it, work there until you can't progress anymore, or until you start getting pissed off at every student.

Brewguy · Post by **Brewguy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:54 am

How long should a person be an instructor?

Well, in my opinion (which may not be popular with some)....
> Don't become an instructor unless you have a real passion / desire for it, and actually want to teach people how to fly!
> Only work as an instructor for as long as that passion to teach remains. i.e. When it is no longer enjoyable, when it becomes "work", or when you start worrying about how much time you have in your logbook - quit and move on.

We have to stop thinking about instructing as some sort of "pergatory" or "necessary evil" for people on their way to the airlines. It should be a career choice in itself, not mearly a time building exercise.

But hey, thats just my 2 cents worth.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:22 am

stop thinking about instructing as some sort of "pergatory"

Well ... for starters it pays crap, because of all the kids who are doing it to build time. Who wants to be paid crap?

If I was making the rules, I'd require that someone have 1000TT before they could get their class 4. This would improve the quality of instruction and also increase the wage that an instructor would earn, because 250 hour wonders would have to look elsewhere to build time.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:33 am

I find it really funny that some will crap on others for taking the instructor route as a way to time build…LMFAO, why else would they be doing it if there a young airline seeking newbie? It certainly isn’t for the pay and retirement package. For most it’s for the TT and the chance to move on.

Now just because your instructing solely for the time building reason doesn’t necessarily make you a bad instructor. It’s a personal thing. Do you take pride in your work, are you patient and willing to put in that extra (free) time to help some understand something they just can’t grasp. Do you view padding your logbook as stealing, because it is.
You may pad your book, and treat the students as nothing more than cattle, but keep in mind it’s a very small industry, it will follow you around.

Attitude AND experience has everything to do with what makes you a great instructor.

Get your 1000 TT, get some multi PIC (500 is a great number), then get on a 2 crew machine and let yourself be taught.

Cheers.

cedar tree · Post by **cedar tree** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:49 am

Learn as much as you can, get your class 3 at the least, get into multi-ifr instruction, and make the hop to a left seat piston twin or right seat turbine asap. When the wave is on, you will want to use your surf board.

If you have 1000 hours when you make the move, you will be set for your ATP requirements.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:55 am

" Learn as much as you can, get your class 3 at the least, get into multi-ifr instruction, "

Great idea, 250 hour wonders teaching how to fly moving up to a class 3 teaching multi-IFR....

...brings a whole new meaning to the blind leading the blind.

Cat

JW · Post by JW » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:45 am

If I was making the rules, I'd require that someone have 1000TT before they could get their class 4. This would improve the quality of instruction and also increase the wage that an instructor would earn, because 250 hour wonders would have to look elsewhere to build time

.

I believe that this would make all the difference in the world, there would be nothing but excellent instructors in Canada, mind you there would only be 2-3 per province....I guess that doesn't really solve much then. I know some high time instructors that are ass holes and couldn't teach there way out of a box, but transport thinks they can because they can follow a syllabus. I think that the amount of TT you have and your instructing abilities do not go hand in hand, and anyone that says so is a high time instructor that wont move on... and probably started teaching with 200 hours somewhere.
JW

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:56 am

I think that the amount of TT you have and your instructing abilities do not go hand in hand

So, you are saying that experience doesn't improve someone's skill and knowledge?

What horseshit.

JW · Post by JW » Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:33 pm

Hedley, I know that you know how to read but give it another try. I said

I think that the amount of TT you have and your instructing abilities do not go hand in hand

I never said that experience does not improve someone's skills or knowledge. Just because someone has 1000 hours doesn't mean that they will be a good instructor, which is what you implied when you said:

If I was making the rules, I'd require that someone have 1000TT before they could get their class 4

Does 1000 hours give you instant amazing instructing abilities? I know it gives a person good experience, and in some cases increases their knowledge BUT that does not mean they will be a better instructor than a guy with 300 hours. You could have the most skilled and knowledged person sitting next to you, but if they are not a good instructor none of that will matter. What matters is the persons ability to pass on that knowledge and skill, and I don't think that comes with just having 1000 hours. Do you know what I'm saying? Not trying to start shit throwing contest, I'm just sick of hearing how low time guys are good for nothing but throwing bags. You have to start somewhere.

JW

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:53 pm

I'm just sick of hearing how low time guys are good for nothing but throwing bags. You have to start somewhere.

Sure, but why does it have to be instructing? Doesn't anyone feel the least bit of shame as to how badly students are taught these days?

If someone was required to have 1000TT before they got their class 4 instructor rating:

1) they would know a whole lot more about flying than someone with 250TT, and

2) you'd see the wage for an instructor increase to something that a person could live on. Google "supply and demand" to learn why.

You may think that both of these are bad things. You are entitled to your opinion.

duplicate2 · Post by **duplicate2** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:47 pm

Hedley wrote:If someone was required to have 1000TT before they got their class 4 instructor rating:

1) they would know a whole lot more about flying than someone with 250TT, and

2) you'd see the wage for an instructor increase to something that a person could live on. Google "supply and demand" to learn why.

Guess you didn't take ECON 110/111/112 as electives.

If you required 1000TT for Class 4s, there would be very few as justwork said (only those who love teaching) and they would get paid lots as you said.

This would cut down on the number of students significantly, leading eventually to a short supply in the number of commercial pilots in Canada (not entirely a bad thing), further reducing the number of instructors ("1000TT, I can be a King Air captain or a 172 instructor, hmm?"), exaggerating the problem.

These are not all bad things. But then everyone on avcanada would bitch that TC is over-regulating training and now only the rich can afford a CPL. Plus Cat would tell us that he could put out a perfect instructor candidate with 35TT (PPL + 5).

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:51 pm

If you have 1000 hours when you make the move, you will be set for your ATP requirements.

yea...you don't want to get caught in the right seat needing your ATPL

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:27 pm

(instructors) would get paid lots as you said ... leading eventually to a short supply in the number of commercial pilots in Canada

which would lead to an increase in the wages for commercial pilots.

And this is bad because?

now only the rich can afford a CPL

You may have heard of these aircraft called "float planes". They look like normal aircraft, but have buoyant "pontoons" or "floats" affixed, usually symmetrically in pairs, to the bottom of the aircraft, aligned with the fuselage, usually with enough vertical space between the "floats" and the fuselage so that the prop mostly stays out of the water, and enough horizontal space between the "floats" so that the aircraft doesn't tip over easily.

Precious few 250 TT pilots build float time by getting a class 4 instructor rating, a 7 hour float rating, then by instructing on floats, until they have enough float time to be hired by a commercial operator (hint - it's not even legal, according to CAR 425).

Why should they be allowed to build time on wheels in the same manner, and subject poor students to the kind of inferior (and hideously expensive) flight instruction we see today?

P.S. Not everyone that flies float planes for commercial operators was "rich", as you put it. How did they build their time? Hmmm ....

JW · Post by JW » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:55 pm

I wish every instructor was Hedley. Just make clones of the guy, then everything would be perfect.

Why should they be allowed to build time on wheels in the same manner, and subject poor students to the kind of inferior (and hideously expensive) flight instruction we see today?

Get a grip,

JW

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:06 pm

" I wish every instructor was Hedley. Just make clones of the guy, then everything would be perfect. "

Hey, what about me I also feel the system needs change...

..so why is Hedley getting all the attention...aaaahhhh welllllll...I guess there are enough instructors who resent me so I'll let Hedley have the limelight this time.

wingtip · Post by **wingtip** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:14 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Hey, what about me I also feel the system needs change...

..so why is Hedley getting all the attention...aaaahhhh welllllll...I guess there are enough instructors who resent me so I'll let Hedley have the limelight this time.

Instructors come in all shapes and forms and I am sure a lot of readers here have appreciated learning from your lessons......

Cheers!