Hawkair Pilots and Flight Attendants unionize

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blue-sky
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Hawkair Pilots and Flight Attendants unionize

Post by blue-sky »

Hey I overheard hear some people at Vancouver airport talking that Hawkair's flight crew was union or going for a union??????
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bronson
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Post by bronson »

Yep, something like 98% signed up for the CAW is what I hear.
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Bede
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Post by Bede »

Just what aviation needs, Buzz representing them. We'll see how long it will be until HawkAir is under.
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Post by Kosiw »

Are they not just hanging on, or in restructuring right now?
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Post by Go Guns »

To me it would seem silly to unionize while you're company is under protection from creditors and restructuring. I wonder what the story is?
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cedar tree
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Post by cedar tree »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big pro-union guy, but sometimes a collective agreement bwt the company and it's pilot's is just what the company needs. This can often result in more company stability as the crew costs are mapped out, keeping the pilots happy, as they know what to expect with pay and upgrades, etc.
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ajet32
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Hawkair Unions

Post by ajet32 »

Some of the poorest paid DH8 pilots in the country. I think that might explain it , perhaps Air Lab or paying their FO's less but no one else . Unions only result from poor pay working conditions or to much koolaid. BTW I'm not a union fan either .
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bronson
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Post by bronson »

Bede wrote: Just what aviation needs, Buzz representing them. We'll see how long it will be until HawkAir is under


If I just take that at face value Bede it sounds as though you're saying the 98% of pilots and FAs that signed up aren't smart enough to know what's in their best interests. You on the other hand.....
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Hawkair Pilot Pay

Post by propeller »

Hey ajet32.

Watcha talk'in about? Hawkair pays higher than average for dash 8 operators in the country and in the USA. And they only work 10-14 days per month.

Starting FO pay is 10k per year higher than average scale. AND they pay this with out a union. Maybe a union is a good move for the company since the pay will probably go DOWN!
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Post by bronson »

They work 10-14 dys because they tend to tx in 11 or 12, senior capt gets about 30-40k less than ,say Jazz for example
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Bede
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Post by Bede »

Bronson,

Sorry to insult you and your coworkers. I assume you work for Hawkair, or someone else that flys into Bronson Creek (used to go in there myself). Pilots, while almost always professionals, are not economists. If a company is in bankruptcy protection, there obviously isn't much money in the bank and the squeeze is on to make things work. However, trying to artificially raise wages without corresponding increase in productivity is a surefire way of losing your job. This is not a debatable issue, it's a simple economic fact. Why is it that most of the layoffs in todays economy come from the companies with the largest and most powerful unions (CAW in particular)?

Also, you are comparing wages with Jazz. If Jazz pays so much better, why don't you guys come over? I'm sure the vast majority of you would get hired.

Cheers
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Post by JZA »

"Pilots, while almost always professionals, are not economists. If a company is in bankruptcy protection, there obviously isn't much money in the bank and the squeeze is on to make things work. However, trying to artificially raise wages without corresponding increase in productivity is a surefire way of losing your job."

Well said Bede.

The timing of joining a union by the Hawkair pilots suggests to me that they are not fully in tune with their employers present situation.
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Post by bronson »

The union thing isn't about money. Lots of guys have gone to Jazz or West Jet, in fact none of the original pilots are left. When your major shareholder likes to say pilots are a dime a dozen, kick over a garbage can and a pilot will fall out etc. nobody should be surprised that a union appears. What were you flying in Bronson in the bad old days Bede?
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Post by Bede »

Hey Bronson,

I know how you feel. It sucks when management implys that qualified professionals are a dime a dozen. I think the best thing to do is quit. When management starts running out of decent guys, they change their tune pretty quick. I used to work for a company that instead of being stupid and raising training bonds when guys left, gave the remaining guys a good raise (starting wage on light TP around $55K). That's the way to do business.

I used to work for Vanderhoof Flying Service many years ago. I flew RS in the PA31 to Kemess a fair it, and Bronson probably only once.

Cheers
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noonespecial
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Post by noonespecial »

Bronson can't quit. He's just waiting for a chance to do another 3 engine take off.

You know you liked it.
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bronson
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Post by bronson »

Busted!
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Post by noonespecial »

BooYah!

Wee Make Eeeeeit!
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bronson
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Post by bronson »

maybe we should start a Bronson Creek thread over in the bush flying section?
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propeller
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Unions, schmounions

Post by propeller »

It's fine to say that management doesn't appreciate the employees Bronson; and who knows, you may be right. But how can a union help that situation? Having been on both sides of the fence, management and non, I can say that most management personnel are as focused on doing as good a job for the company as the non management staff do in their respective jobs. Sometimes people get so focused on reaching a goal that the 'warm fuzzys' take a back seat. Especially during a super stressful time like a court sanctioned restructuring. That's not to say that Hawkair's major stakeholder may not be an insensitive jerk, but is that enough reason to take the company down?

From what I hear Hawkair is, and always has been, an awsome company that is going through a rough patch. I understand that they have always treated their employees really well. My humble opinion is that you are either part of the soulution or you are part of the problem. If the company doesn't meet certain expectations then you create a venue by which to address these concerns constructively, or you find another sandbox to play in.

Jeopardizing some 100 jobs for hurt feelings..... well, all I can say is grow up people.

As for the payscale, like the other guy said, if you want that kind of dough, go work for Jazz! I know that Jazz may have an issue with flying their pilots free pos space for their commute to work! Appearantly, Hawkair has done this for their crews for years. I think that you might also be based in YYZ for 5 years before having a crack at the coast. And be sure to ask Jazz about a captain's upgrade. I think 6-10 years is about the norm depending on the base.

I think that if Hawkair's employees want to see the company survive and prosper they must contribute to solving the problems and not worsen the situation. I still think that Hawkair is a great company full of great people. Employees should embrace the company and protect it at this cruicial time in Hawkair's existance. Look to the future and deal with hurt feelings like big people. 8) 8)
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Post by bronson »

find another sandbox to play in.

That's exactly what I did. The union is about keping the things that make Hawkair a great little company, not about squeezing it to death. Maybe you should examine the idea that a union can also be a positive thing, depends on the people that are in it.
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Post by noonespecial »

Hey Bronson,

If we had a Bronson thread we would never have to listen to Propeller, or for that matter anyone from Toronto ever again. Which is just as well.
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bronson
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Post by bronson »

there is a thread on Bronson.......heh
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Re: Unions, schmounions

Post by YYC-OPS »

propeller wrote:
Jeopardizing some 100 jobs for hurt feelings..... well, all I can say is grow up people.
I suspect that's part of the problem - those 100 jobs. 2 x 37 seat Dash 8's, neither of which are at optimum block hour utilisation... if there are a 100 jobs, one might want to look at that overhead.

I'm not a Hawkair insider, so I couldn't say how many pilots or F/A's are on the books, and how many maintenace and CSA's. It'd be interesting to see what the 'admin/office/management/marketing/etc' numbers make up of that total.

100 people is a lot of bodies for a 2 turboprop operation.
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onfinal
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hawkair pilots and flight attendants unionize

Post by onfinal »

Bronson when were you there?
I was in a plane that did a three eng t/o back to home base. Can remember many good times down by the creek.I wouldn't mind flying a d8.

Cheers N :lol:
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bronson
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Post by bronson »

Off and on from about 1985 or so, nearly to the end of it all. Didn't have to watch the chalet burn though.
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