Is Jazz the right choice

[Inverted2]

Was it prior to 2006 when Air Canada owned a majority or all of Jazz? I don’t recall it being much of an issue then and we had nothing of a flow through at all. A trickle went over and tons and tons of PFOs. Now there’s other options out there where you don’t have to do years of shitty Jazz pay then 4 years of shitty AC flat pay.

[Fanblade]

Was it prior to 2006 when Air Canada owned a majority or all of Jazz? I don’t recall it being much of an issue then and we had nothing of a flow through at all. A trickle went over and tons and tons of PFOs. Now there’s other options out there where you don’t have to do years of shitty Jazz pay then 4 years of shitty AC flat pay.

Air Canada started aligning with regionals in the late 1980’s. Over the next decade they slowly bought all these regionals up. By the mid 1990’s AC was running AirBC, Air Ontario, Air Nova and Air Alliance as wholly owned entities. By the late 1990’s Air Canada merged them all together calling it I believe Air Canada Express? Or was it Air Canada regional? Next came the merger with Canadian regional airlines.

From the mid 1990’s to 2006 all of these entities ran, apart or together, as wholly owned subsidiaries of AC. Flow throughs came and went. Common employer failed.

In 2006 the regional unit was sold off to become what we know as Jazz today.

What is being discussed is the whole process may come full circle. Jazz may become yet again a wholly owned subsidiary.

The point that has become murky in this thread is that purchasing does not equal merger. It could. But it doesn’t have too. Historically speaking it won’t mean merger.

[truedude]

Was it prior to 2006 when Air Canada owned a majority or all of Jazz? I don’t recall it being much of an issue then and we had nothing of a flow through at all. A trickle went over and tons and tons of PFOs. Now there’s other options out there where you don’t have to do years of shitty Jazz pay then 4 years of shitty AC flat pay.

Air Canada started aligning with regionals in the late 1980’s. Over the next decade they slowly bought all these regionals up. By the mid 1990’s AC was running AirBC, Air Ontario, Air Nova and Air Alliance as wholly owned entities. By the late 1990’s Air Canada merged them all together calling it I believe Air Canada Express? Or was it Air Canada regional? Next came the merger with Canadian regional airlines.

From the mid 1990’s to 2006 all of these entities ran, apart or together, as wholly owned subsidiaries of AC. Flow throughs came and went. Common employer failed.

In 2006 the regional unit was sold off to become what we know as Jazz today.

What is being discussed is the whole process may come full circle. Jazz may become yet again a wholly owned subsidiary.

The point that has become murky in this thread is that purchasing does not equal merger. It could. But it doesn’t have too. Historically speaking it won’t mean merger.

The only thing I would correct is that it became Air Canada Regional after the purchase and merger of Canadian. It became Jazz and spun off (along with Aeroplan) post bankruptcy, as an effort to repay the investors that funded the exit from bankruptcy.

And yes, if Air Canada buys Jazz, there is not need to merge anything. The only issue I see with that is, I don't see how they fix the pilot issue without either paying a lot more to come to Jazz, or making the only path to Air Canada through Jazz. The ladder would obviously require some sort of seniority list fix from ACPA, perhaps some sort of one way valve out of the regional, along with some pay protection. ie, the regional list get taped on to the bottom of the ACPA list, and you can stay at the regionals forever, or bid onto mainline equipment when you want. That is how I would do it. It protects both the lifestyle of senior regional pilots, doesn't erode the seniority of anyone at Air Canada, and stops the constant robing Peter to pay Paul issue we have going on now.

But that would obviously require a let for ACPA, who would rightfully want something in return.

[Stu Pidasso]

Jazz as we know it won't be around this time next year, something is going to give. If I had a kid in the business, I would advise them to look elsewhere. Jazz is a great Airline, amazing safety record with fabulous training.

I think you'll see the 220 and the Rouge Airbus taking back more routes.

I am with Rudder, AC will buy them nobody will lose their jobs and all that will be left is the Q. AC has said publicly 6000 Pilots by 2024, don't think anyone has to worry about being gainfully employed.

Crazy business.

[cdnavater]

The only thing to fix the pilot(Capt) problem is to have a two way street from mainline to Jazz and vice versa, without this the pay would have to go up.
Stapling the Jazz list to the bottom and all hiring going through Jazz would have more experienced pilots thinking twice.
Would you want to be below several hundred low time FOs in perpetuity? Unless the DEC Captian pay goes up enough to justify this extremely long path to a mainline position, who would do this.
As for AC buying Jazz and merging operations in, history does not always predict future events. I would be prepared for this.
This would be the easiest thing for AC to do, here’s your new co-workers, figure out the seniority list.
Right sizing Jazz could in the short term solve the Captain shortage, bring us to 80 fins earlier would be about what we could staff now maybe a few more, at the rate AC is taking pilots and our retirements, we couldn’t upgrade fast enough for the longer term, so all this being purely speculation, my guess is purchase and merger makes the most sense, as I believe Fanblade mentioned, having experienced FOs at mainline bid left seat Jazz is a huge benefit to AC.
The wages at Jazz have to go up anyway, so negotiations under the AC pilots contract could/would delay this.
Obviously some details to figure out, like non ATPL pilots bidding up, I don’t think AC would want that tidbit getting out if that were to happen

[Fanblade]

As for AC buying Jazz and merging operations in, history does not always predict future events. I would be prepared for this.
This would be the easiest thing for AC to do, here’s your new co-workers, figure out the seniority list.

I would never say never. And yes history won’t necessarily repeat.

However I think there are a few truths you can’t overlook.

AC still needs a regional airline even after the changes we are talking about impact the industry. Maybe smaller, but a regional is still required.

Creating a quality regional is not an easy task. Jazz is quality.

Merging Jazz into AC means a cost structure that can not compete in the regional market. It means starting up a new regional and in this case giving up quality.

Is AC going to need to pay Jazz pilots better? Absolutely. There are lots of people who would prefer that lifestyle if it paid a proper wage like in Europe and now the US. No matter what happens AC will need to open their wallet. It’s just that when a company opens their wallet and changes their cost structure, the business plan has to adjust with it.

[Fanblade]

Jazz as we know it won't be around this time next year, something is going to give. If I had a kid in the business, I would advise them to look elsewhere. Jazz is a great Airline, amazing safety record with fabulous training.

I think you'll see the 220 and the Rouge Airbus taking back more routes.

I am with Rudder, AC will buy them nobody will lose their jobs and all that will be left is the Q. AC has said publicly 6000 Pilots by 2024, don't think anyone has to worry about being gainfully employed.

Crazy business.

Canada is not Europe or the eastern US. Our density can not support anything but regional aircraft on many routes.

Jazz wages have to go up. That and a shortage will drive “some” repatriation back to mainline solely based on economics.

Jazz isn’t going anywhere IMO. Maybe a little smaller over time but larger replacement aircraft don’t grow on trees. No matter what happens AC still requires substantial regional lift.

What Jazz has to do right now is pay better. The CPA makes that issue important. Who pays? Does increasing pay make the CPA uneconomical for Chorus? The real tug o war may actually be what we don’t see between Chorus and AC.

It’s not our job to figure out the business plan. Our job is simply to set pilot rates. They will figure it out.

[truedude]

I would say it is difficult to evaluate the cost/benefit ratio of the regional network, given that so much of the traffic is connecting on. But in my imagined solution, the pay still needs to come up for ATPL rated pilots, and not pay hit for when someone moves from the regional equipment to mainline. And when we speak of competition, the other companies will be forced to raise pay too, or simply have no regional feed.

The issue with a two way valve is you can't have newly hired AC pilots bounce down and outbid a 30 yr regional pilot. The other scenario is merging lists, but oblivious that has big problems to overcome. I don't think any regional pilot would expect to become a 777 captain from any such scenario, as I think most senior regional pilots care more about quality of life (days off, summer vacation, etc) over what airplane is attached to their backside.

I suspect 2023 will be an interesting year for the AC group, and I do think there is a solution in which everyone sees a raise in pay, and we can fix some long standing issues that have plagued this industry for far too long, ensuring both job stability for all pilots, and a strong airline going forward. One which will force other airlines to follow suit, essentially negating any argument that AC will become to expensive to compute.

[hithere]

Stapling Jazz onto the bottom of the AC list does solve recruitment problems because there would then be two pathways to AC: for low time(ie non ATPL/sub 1000 hour folks you would start off as a Air Canada Dash-400 FO and work your way up from there, higher time folks could be offered DEC on any type if they had previous experience/type ratings ,realizing they would have the same seniority number as the guy just hired as the Dash FO but the pay would be much higher for the experienced folks

[hithere]

As well AC currently has no aircraft in the 79-136 seat range. The options are a A220-100 or EMB-190-E2. The A220 is way more expensive and Im sure AC would prefer the Embraer to compete with Porter and their pay rates. If Jazz is stapled onto the bottom of the AC list we are all now AC pilots and the whipsaw is gone and everyone benefits

[RoAF-Mig21]

As well AC currently has no aircraft in the 79-136 seat range. The options are a A220-100 or EMB-190-E2. The A220 is way more expensive and Im sure AC would prefer the Embraer to compete with Porter and their pay rates. If Jazz is stapled onto the bottom of the AC list we are all now AC pilots and the whipsaw is gone and everyone benefits

That would solove the E190/E170-E2 issues (with the scope clause), wouldn't it? Jazz would have a viable replacement to their E175s and CRJ900s. The ATR42/72-600 is also a nice aircraft if the Q400 will no longer be made.... or do away altogether with turboprops and farm it out to PAL, Perimeter, etc.

[Fanblade]

As well AC currently has no aircraft in the 79-136 seat range. The options are a A220-100 or EMB-190-E2. The A220 is way more expensive and Im sure AC would prefer the Embraer to compete with Porter and their pay rates. If Jazz is stapled onto the bottom of the AC list we are all now AC pilots and the whipsaw is gone and everyone benefits

You are adding to my point. We have been told in the past that the AC cost structure doesn’t support aircraft under about 130 seats. This number would ebb and flow with the cost of fuel and labor. I note that Delta operates the 717 and A220-100 with their cost structure. So maybe AC was blowing a little smoke when they came up with that number. However whatever that number is? Below it, is not viable in house.

So merging Jazz into AC makes no sense to me. Now you need to create a regional again

But yes a much better mobility agreement would make perfect sense.

Two problems.

Pilots go nuts. Just because you personally are okay with being stapled on the bottom doesn’t mean someone else won’t get seniority ideas. Start challenging any agreement. The history on this topic is such a lightening rod problem.

Did I mention pilots go nuts?

Any time you start negotiating with more than two parties the odds of getting a deal diminish substantially. AC and Jazz will no doubt bring asks to the table.

And yeah. Don’t forget pilots go nuts.

Despite my lack of confidence in our ability to get something like that done. It would be the best outcome. Agreed.

[rudder]

Jazz/Express starting FO pay >$65k.

Jazz year 1 CA $100k.

AC starting pay $100k.

Reserved numbers at AC for qualified Jazz pilots.

It isn’t rocket science. But these type of logical changes are a seemingly monumental uphill battle based on what is happening at the bargaining table(s).

[truedude]

Jazz/Express starting FO pay >$65k.

Jazz year 1 CA $100k.

AC starting pay $100k.

Reserved numbers at AC for qualified Jazz pilots.

It isn’t rocket science. But these type of logical changes are a seemingly monumental uphill battle based on what is happening at the bargaining table(s).

The reserved numbers need to count towards years of service for pay at AC too. This stupidity of taking a massive haircut in pay to go to AC needs to come to an end. It is pure insanity and piece of aviation history that simply needs to come to an end.

And in return, Air Canada will corner the market on pilots, and assure a smooth never ending supply of bodies to fill seats, and a topic that no longer needs to take up minutes in board rooms as a potential issue to running an airline.

[Fanblade]

We don’t run the company.

We just set rates.

Set em and forget em.

Wait them out. They loath they idea of proceeding down the recent path in the US. Pattern bargains becomes a problem if they give 50% raise to someone at Jazz.

At the end of the day they have to run an airline and appeal to shareholders. They can’t shrink revenue because they don’t want to pay pilot wages. Maybe short term but it’s not a go forward strategy.

Wait.

Air Canada does not run without feed.

It’s entirely probable they have given up on summer 2023. They may be thinking they have half a year, or more, in their back pocket

[truedude]

Yes, you can almost feel their desperation to ignore the reality of the situation. But this is what I don't understand: the problem only compounds the longer they wait, and it will be the much harder to resolve.

But yes, I can see them deciding 2023 is a wash, in hopes of a recession or some other magic solution might present itself that doesn't include pay.

[Transition9er2]

And what happens to all the Jazz ppl that came over to AC in the past few years under a binding contract that allowed them to flow based solely on their Jazz seniority? Do they simply get a “ohh dang, I guess poor planning on your part”?!

Especially those recently coming over with ‘17/‘18 hire dates and are now the most junior pilots at AC… you think that’ll go over unchallenged if they forfeit everything you’re describing above, yet you attain because it just so happened that couldn’t or wouldn’t flow?

I dunno man, I’m starting to think more and more that it’s highly unlikely the seniority lists will ever merge as one.

Too many complications. Too much bad blood from previous mergers.

It’ll take someone who is significantly smarter than management and the pilot groups to find a solution that works on this one.

[hithere]

I don’t understand your question. Anyone that has already flowed to AC would be senior to the stapled list. There will need to be fences etc and it’s entirely likely that the seniority solution would end up before an arbitrator but that’s the process

[Stayfly121]

Worst airline I’ve ever worked for. FO pay is inhuman.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Worst airline I’ve ever worked for. FO pay is inhuman.

+1