Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

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co-joe
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by co-joe »

digits_ wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:57 am
co-joe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:41 am But there's just not enough useful load as a rental.
Why not? Solo time building? Perfect airplane. Even if it's only 10 dollars an hour cheaper (in reality it could be much cheaper), that's significant for CPL time builders! Or even when just flying for fun.
All I can say is try renting a 150 and actually going somewhere. Even full fuel is 4 hours at 85 kts, so barely 300 nm with reserve in no wind. 2 Full grown men, you are literally touching from your knee, to your ribs, your shoulders touch the whole time, one guy has to put his arm around the other. It's pretty common in a decent headwind to watch cars pass you. It's a fun little sight seeing, hopping around the area in nice weather machine, but it's really tough to do any decent xc flying in one unless you have nowhere to go, and all day to get there.

Its great for a personal fun toy, but it's not a rental machine. I would love to have one, maybe when prices come back down to the stratosphere.
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by digits_ »

co-joe wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:09 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:57 am
co-joe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:41 am But there's just not enough useful load as a rental.
Why not? Solo time building? Perfect airplane. Even if it's only 10 dollars an hour cheaper (in reality it could be much cheaper), that's significant for CPL time builders! Or even when just flying for fun.
All I can say is try renting a 150 and actually going somewhere. Even full fuel is 4 hours at 85 kts, so barely 300 nm with reserve in no wind. 2 Full grown men, you are literally touching from your knee, to your ribs, your shoulders touch the whole time, one guy has to put his arm around the other. It's pretty common in a decent headwind to watch cars pass you. It's a fun little sight seeing, hopping around the area in nice weather machine, but it's really tough to do any decent xc flying in one unless you have nowhere to go, and all day to get there.

Its great for a personal fun toy, but it's not a rental machine. I would love to have one, maybe when prices come back down to the stratosphere.
An old cheap 172 will give you 90 kts and 4 hours. Not really a significant difference. Not all grown men are american sized. Plenty of skinny adults out there.

Time builders want a cheap price per hour, not a cheap price per mile.

Time builders literally have nowhere to go, and they do have all day to get there.

How many pilots rent aircraft for multi day long XC trips? Way less than 100 dollar hamburger trips. Most FTUs won't even let you rent the plane for multi day trips without some heavy restrictions.

I'd say that 80% of all PPL flying done with an FTU 172 today, could be done with a 150/152.
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by PilotDAR »

but it's really tough to do any decent xc flying in one unless you have nowhere to go, and all day to get there.
Nonsense! I flew my 150 on many trips from central Ontario, as far east as the Magdaline Islands and Cape Breton, as far south as the Bahamas (with my wife and two folding bikes) and Brownsville, Texas, and as far west as Edmonton. If you're looking to build experience, and PIC time, it's a great plane!
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by digits_ »

PilotDAR wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:02 pm
but it's really tough to do any decent xc flying in one unless you have nowhere to go, and all day to get there.
Nonsense! I flew my 150 on many trips from central Ontario, as far east as the Magdaline Islands and Cape Breton, as far south as the Bahamas (with my wife and two folding bikes) and Brownsville, Texas, and as far west as Edmonton. If you're looking to build experience, and PIC time, it's a great plane!
They sure are! I flew one across the Aalps once, in summer and with another full fledged adult. It was even a rental!
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by pelmet »

Gotta be careful. About three years ago, I approached a couple of different flight schools about the purchase and lease idea. It never got around to actually going through. One went bankrupt and the other entered severe financial issues that are still ongoing. A fellow businessman I know has loaned big bucks to the second one which is a club, in addition to purchasing their aircraft and leasing them back. I wonder if he will ever get it back. Another club in the area almost went bankrupt a few years ago and is slowly recovering and a fourth school terminated leases of a fellow I know that was leasing a couple of aircraft to them. Another guy I know had a turbine twin leased to a large flight school on the east coast. He lost big bucks in a bankruptcy quite a few years ago.
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:24 am
co-joe wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:01 am The C-150 just isn't that useful as a trainer for a school, two full size men and half tanks and you're just about full, with 2 hours of fuel. Fine as a personal machine to train on though. Now if you have the 120k to buy a decent 172 I bet you could lease it to a school tomorrow. One thing to remember, most schools can run an engine past TBO or what's known as "on condition" but it has to be below TBO hours when they put the plane on their OC.
Depends on the size of the men. Most young instructors I have seen would definitely be successful in teaching in a c150. I can see a market for a cheaper 150 training option for the lighter students.

But not as a leaseback option, as photofly already pointed out.
There is a big fancy school I have contacts with that have a bunch of C150's. Many have gone through the refurbishing that is available in the US. But they are training a lot of foreign students that seem to be much slimmer than your average North American.
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:26 pm
digits_ wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:24 am
co-joe wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:01 am The C-150 just isn't that useful as a trainer for a school, two full size men and half tanks and you're just about full, with 2 hours of fuel. Fine as a personal machine to train on though. Now if you have the 120k to buy a decent 172 I bet you could lease it to a school tomorrow. One thing to remember, most schools can run an engine past TBO or what's known as "on condition" but it has to be below TBO hours when they put the plane on their OC.
Depends on the size of the men. Most young instructors I have seen would definitely be successful in teaching in a c150. I can see a market for a cheaper 150 training option for the lighter students.

But not as a leaseback option, as photofly already pointed out.
There is a big fancy school I have contacts with that have a bunch of C150's. Many have gone through the refurbishing that is available in the US. But they are training a lot of foreign students that seem to be much slimmer than your average North American.
Talking about foreign students. The general consensus in Europe is that you would have to be crazy to learn to fly in a 4 seater. Why pay for 2 extra seats you're not going to use?
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co-joe
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by co-joe »

PilotDAR wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:02 pm
but it's really tough to do any decent xc flying in one unless you have nowhere to go, and all day to get there.
Nonsense! I flew my 150 on many trips from central Ontario, as far east as the Magdaline Islands and Cape Breton, as far south as the Bahamas (with my wife and two folding bikes) and Brownsville, Texas, and as far west as Edmonton. If you're looking to build experience, and PIC time, it's a great plane!
That's crazy talk. :) I love your stories PD! I keep reiterating that the mighty 150 is a great aeroplane, but it's singular in its mission, it's not a rental machine. If I'm wrong, why do so few flight schools have them in their fleets then?
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by digits_ »

co-joe wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:10 pm
PilotDAR wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:02 pm
but it's really tough to do any decent xc flying in one unless you have nowhere to go, and all day to get there.
Nonsense! I flew my 150 on many trips from central Ontario, as far east as the Magdaline Islands and Cape Breton, as far south as the Bahamas (with my wife and two folding bikes) and Brownsville, Texas, and as far west as Edmonton. If you're looking to build experience, and PIC time, it's a great plane!
That's crazy talk. :) I love your stories PD! I keep reiterating that the mighty 150 is a great aeroplane, but it's singular in its mission, it's not a rental machine. If I'm wrong, why do so few flight schools have them in their fleets then?
Easy. Renters (claim they) want to be able to take up friends. So as a school or rental place, you will need at least one 4 seater. You start out small with 1 plane, let's say a 172. Then you grow, and want to buy a second one so students are familiar with the type. You grow more. You don't want to go through the hassle of adding another type to your AOC without any benefits. Better get a citabria to offer tailwheel and aerobatic instruction.

There also aren't that many around, so a bit harder to get commercially registered.
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by photofly »

I thought lots of flight schools have 150s.
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co-joe
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by co-joe »

photofly wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:03 pm I thought lots of flight schools have 150s.
I'm a bit out of the loop on flight training but I did a few searches around Alberta, and only found McMurray Aviation has 2 C-152's, and Freedom Air services in Joshephburg has a 150. That's it for this province. I think altitude is a real factor here though, maybe somewhere closer to sea level you might see more of them.
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Re: Private Plane Lease Back To Flight School - any ideas?

Post by photofly »

Around the GTA there's Island Air, Durham Flight Centre that do. Spectrum Aviation, Canadian Flight Academy and WM Aeroflight have 152s.
Canadian Flyers and Brampton Flying club don't list either.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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